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AdmittedStudentsOurDecisions 9 - 07 Jan 2010 - Main.IanSullivan
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| | | Our Experiences at Admitted Students Day
This topic is meant to be a documentation of what we experienced at our admitted students day, how we made our decisions to come here. It is pulled from the discussion here, and should serve as a basis for a discussion on how admitted students day can improve. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here. |
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AdmittedStudentsOurDecisions 8 - 06 Apr 2009 - Main.JasonLissy
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| | Our Experiences at Admitted Students Day
This topic is meant to be a documentation of what we experienced at our admitted students day, how we made our decisions to come here. It is pulled from the discussion here, and should serve as a basis for a discussion on how admitted students day can improve. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here. | | | COLUMBIA vs. "HIGHER-PRESTIGE" SCHOOLS | |
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< | Both Columbia and Harvard accepted me. As noted above, while Columbia attempted to sell its prestige post-acceptance with a deluge of materials, Harvard attempted to market its prestige both prior to and following acceptance. In order to gain an offer of admission, candidates in high-standing were required to phone interview with the Dean. The same dean gave a phone-call acceptance and hand-signed acceptance letter. During the phone acceptance, the dean said something along the lines of "Welcome to the Class of 2011. You are going to love it here." | >
> | For what it's worth, Columbia and Harvard accepted me. As noted above, while Columbia attempted to sell its prestige post-acceptance with a deluge of materials, Harvard attempted to market its prestige both prior to and following acceptance. In order to gain an offer of admission, candidates in high-standing were required to phone interview with the Dean. The same dean gave a phone-call acceptance and hand-signed acceptance letter. During the phone acceptance, the dean said something along the lines of "Welcome to the Class of 2011. You are going to love it here." | | | While perhaps just personal touches by a caring admissions dean (he seemed like a nice guy), these actions can be viewed as tactics designed to heighten the sense of accomplishment of those accepted. The fact that my matriculation was presumed, is indicative of the strategy that higher prestige schools may employ with regard to students considering "lesser-caliber" schools. The implicit message seemed that since Columbia et al. were not on Harvard's radar it should not be on mine. When I submitted my withdrawl notice, the dean emailed me and wrote something to the effect of "are you sure you are making the correct decision..." Again, the sowing of doubt seemed another tactic employed to induce reconsideration of my choice to attend Columbia. |
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AdmittedStudentsOurDecisions 7 - 05 Apr 2009 - Main.JasonLissy
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| | Our Experiences at Admitted Students Day
This topic is meant to be a documentation of what we experienced at our admitted students day, how we made our decisions to come here. It is pulled from the discussion here, and should serve as a basis for a discussion on how admitted students day can improve. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here. | | | -- AndrewCase - 02 Apr 2009 | |
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< | Bold text COLUMBIA vs. "HIGHER-PRESTIGE" SCHOOLS | >
> | COLUMBIA vs. "HIGHER-PRESTIGE" SCHOOLS | | | Both Columbia and Harvard accepted me. As noted above, while Columbia attempted to sell its prestige post-acceptance with a deluge of materials, Harvard attempted to market its prestige both prior to and following acceptance. In order to gain an offer of admission, candidates in high-standing were required to phone interview with the Dean. The same dean gave a phone-call acceptance and hand-signed acceptance letter. During the phone acceptance, the dean said something along the lines of "Welcome to the Class of 2011. You are going to love it here." | |
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< | While perhaps just personal touches by a caring admissions dean (he seemed like a nice guy), these actions can be viewed as tactics designed to heighten the sense of accomplishment of those accepted. The fact that my matriculation was presumed, is indicative of the strategy that higher prestige schools may employ with regard to students considering "lesser-caliber" schools. When I submitted my withdrawl notice, the dean emailed me and wrote something to the effect of "are you sure you are making the correct decision..." Again, the sowing of doubt seemed another tactic employed to induce reconsideration of my choice to attend Columbia. | >
> | While perhaps just personal touches by a caring admissions dean (he seemed like a nice guy), these actions can be viewed as tactics designed to heighten the sense of accomplishment of those accepted. The fact that my matriculation was presumed, is indicative of the strategy that higher prestige schools may employ with regard to students considering "lesser-caliber" schools. The implicit message seemed that since Columbia et al. were not on Harvard's radar it should not be on mine. When I submitted my withdrawl notice, the dean emailed me and wrote something to the effect of "are you sure you are making the correct decision..." Again, the sowing of doubt seemed another tactic employed to induce reconsideration of my choice to attend Columbia. | | | | |
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< | Ultimately, personal and not prestige factors informed my final decision. At the time, peers, relatives, and professors continually encouraged me to reconsider. Making an important decision on the basis of what I and, not what society thought, was most important felt empowering. I hope I can be courageous enough to continue blazing my own path. | >
> | Ultimately, personal (relational and geographic) not prestige factors informed my decision. Peers, relatives, and professors constantly encouraged me to reconsider. At social gatherings, I was introduced not as a CLS 2011 student but as the guy who "got into columbia and HARVARD" or more commonly as the guy who "got into Harvard and ISNT going (read: what an idiot!)."
Making an important decision on the basis of what I, and not what society, thought most important felt empowering. I hope I can be courageous enough to continue carving my own path and to remember, come the 2L and 3L years, that defying society's expectations is not the end of the world and, in fact, yielded an increase in my general happiness. | | | |
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AdmittedStudentsOurDecisions 6 - 05 Apr 2009 - Main.JasonLissy
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| | Our Experiences at Admitted Students Day
This topic is meant to be a documentation of what we experienced at our admitted students day, how we made our decisions to come here. It is pulled from the discussion here, and should serve as a basis for a discussion on how admitted students day can improve. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here. | | | Choosing to go to law school at all
Issues of competition | |
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< | | | | -- AndrewCase - 02 Apr 2009 | |
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> | Bold text COLUMBIA vs. "HIGHER-PRESTIGE" SCHOOLS
Both Columbia and Harvard accepted me. As noted above, while Columbia attempted to sell its prestige post-acceptance with a deluge of materials, Harvard attempted to market its prestige both prior to and following acceptance. In order to gain an offer of admission, candidates in high-standing were required to phone interview with the Dean. The same dean gave a phone-call acceptance and hand-signed acceptance letter. During the phone acceptance, the dean said something along the lines of "Welcome to the Class of 2011. You are going to love it here."
While perhaps just personal touches by a caring admissions dean (he seemed like a nice guy), these actions can be viewed as tactics designed to heighten the sense of accomplishment of those accepted. The fact that my matriculation was presumed, is indicative of the strategy that higher prestige schools may employ with regard to students considering "lesser-caliber" schools. When I submitted my withdrawl notice, the dean emailed me and wrote something to the effect of "are you sure you are making the correct decision..." Again, the sowing of doubt seemed another tactic employed to induce reconsideration of my choice to attend Columbia.
Ultimately, personal and not prestige factors informed my final decision. At the time, peers, relatives, and professors continually encouraged me to reconsider. Making an important decision on the basis of what I and, not what society thought, was most important felt empowering. I hope I can be courageous enough to continue blazing my own path.
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AdmittedStudentsOurDecisions 5 - 03 Apr 2009 - Main.LaurenRosenberg
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| | Our Experiences at Admitted Students Day
This topic is meant to be a documentation of what we experienced at our admitted students day, how we made our decisions to come here. It is pulled from the discussion here, and should serve as a basis for a discussion on how admitted students day can improve. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here. | | |
-- AndrewCase - 02 Apr 2009 | |
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< | In my opinion, the admitted students event experiences should not be different based upon where it is you're choosing between. I think that the most helpful people I spoke to were the forthright ones who knew that they can't really compare their law school to other schools (since they don't attend them and only know superficial information that the admitted students also know). People will make their own decisions based upon their perceptions at each school; all we can do is try to provide an accurate representation of Columbia's academic life, student organizations, and faculty. On the other hand, telling individuals why Columbia is better than say, NYU, makes it seem like we are trying to prove something. I've always adopted the cliche, honesty is the best policy; we don't want people attending our law school for the wrong reasons (because someone convinced them at admitted students day) and later despising this atmosphere. If we let them know what exactly it is that Columbia offers, then students can make the best choices for themselves. Sometimes that will mean choosing Columbia over "higher prestige" schools (and sometimes it will mean the opposite), sometimes it will mean convincing someone that law school is the right decision for them, and hopefully it will always mean an accurate explanation of the competitive nature of law students.
-- LaurenRosenberg - 02 Apr 2009
I think the role of students in the admissions process is not to sell the merits of the school, but instead to demonstrate that the students at Columbia are honest, friendly, outgoing, level-minded thinkers. Admissions explicitly tells us that Admits judge our school based on how "cool" we appear to be. In order to guarantee a good performance, admissions supplies free wine and fancy finger food which, in contrast with the long hours of reading and Famiglia pizza we are used to, puts us in an amicable mood. From my experience with Admits, the substance of what a current student tells them is not nearly as important as how that current student carries him or herself.
Admissions does not need us to lie, they just need us to show up.
-- AlexanderUballez - 02 Apr 2009
I think these comments are valuable, but probably belong under the original topic, where people are discussing what admitted students day should be. Here I am hoping to create a document about what we actually experienced, and how we made our decisions. From that we will at least have something to work with in terms of critique. Re-iterating that we 'ought to be honest' is good-natured, but is not concrete. |
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AdmittedStudentsOurDecisions 4 - 02 Apr 2009 - Main.AndrewCase
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| | Our Experiences at Admitted Students Day | |
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< | This topic is the discussion of our specific experiences at admitted students day and what we have chosen. It is pulled from the discussion here. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here. | >
> | This topic is meant to be a documentation of what we experienced at our admitted students day, how we made our decisions to come here. It is pulled from the discussion here, and should serve as a basis for a discussion on how admitted students day can improve. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here. | | | NYU vs. Columbia | |
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< | One major focus of the Admitted Students Day is to convince students that there are substantive opportunities for public interest. This either is designed to appeal to students simply because incoming students often speak of wanting to do public interest work, or is specifically targeted to counter the prevailing perception that NYU is more public-interest friendly than Columbia. Following are individual recollections of this sale and the following decision-making process | >
> | One major focus of the Admitted Students Day is to convince students that there are substantive opportunities for public interest. This either is designed to appeal to students simply because incoming students often speak of wanting to do public interest work, or is specifically targeted to counter the prevailing perception that NYU is more public-interest friendly than Columbia. Following are individual recollections of this sale and the following decision-making process. | | | | |
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< | At admitted students day at both NYU and Columbia last year, Columbia sold the prestige of the school, the expertise of the professors, and the dynamic current students. Columbia then sent an enormous number of materials after admission. What else would you expect the school to do? NYU sent materials as well, and had alumns who had chosen NYU over CLS call to talk about the decisionmaking process. | >
> | The panels I attended all included students who had done public interest work and students who had done clinics/externships talking about their experience. At NYU, I attended a session with a professor who runs an indigent defenders clinic who talked about how NYU has a much greater focus on real-world clinical education than Columbia. Focus there seemed to be on innovation, here more on prestige.
At admitted students day last year, Columbia sold the prestige of the school, the expertise of the professors, and the dynamic current students. Columbia then sent an enormous number of materials after admission. What else would you expect the school to do? NYU sent materials as well, and had alumns who had chosen NYU over CLS call to talk about their choice. | | | Our role in the process | | | Admissions does not need us to lie, they just need us to show up.
-- AlexanderUballez - 02 Apr 2009 | |
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> | I think these comments are valuable, but probably belong under the original topic, where people are discussing what admitted students day should be. Here I am hoping to create a document about what we actually experienced, and how we made our decisions. From that we will at least have something to work with in terms of critique. Re-iterating that we 'ought to be honest' is good-natured, but is not concrete. |
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AdmittedStudentsOurDecisions 3 - 02 Apr 2009 - Main.AlexanderUballez
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| | Our Experiences at Admitted Students Day
This topic is the discussion of our specific experiences at admitted students day and what we have chosen. It is pulled from the discussion here. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here. | | | In my opinion, the admitted students event experiences should not be different based upon where it is you're choosing between. I think that the most helpful people I spoke to were the forthright ones who knew that they can't really compare their law school to other schools (since they don't attend them and only know superficial information that the admitted students also know). People will make their own decisions based upon their perceptions at each school; all we can do is try to provide an accurate representation of Columbia's academic life, student organizations, and faculty. On the other hand, telling individuals why Columbia is better than say, NYU, makes it seem like we are trying to prove something. I've always adopted the cliche, honesty is the best policy; we don't want people attending our law school for the wrong reasons (because someone convinced them at admitted students day) and later despising this atmosphere. If we let them know what exactly it is that Columbia offers, then students can make the best choices for themselves. Sometimes that will mean choosing Columbia over "higher prestige" schools (and sometimes it will mean the opposite), sometimes it will mean convincing someone that law school is the right decision for them, and hopefully it will always mean an accurate explanation of the competitive nature of law students.
-- LaurenRosenberg - 02 Apr 2009 | |
>
> | I think the role of students in the admissions process is not to sell the merits of the school, but instead to demonstrate that the students at Columbia are honest, friendly, outgoing, level-minded thinkers. Admissions explicitly tells us that Admits judge our school based on how "cool" we appear to be. In order to guarantee a good performance, admissions supplies free wine and fancy finger food which, in contrast with the long hours of reading and Famiglia pizza we are used to, puts us in an amicable mood. From my experience with Admits, the substance of what a current student tells them is not nearly as important as how that current student carries him or herself.
Admissions does not need us to lie, they just need us to show up.
-- AlexanderUballez - 02 Apr 2009 |
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AdmittedStudentsOurDecisions 2 - 02 Apr 2009 - Main.LaurenRosenberg
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< | | | | Our Experiences at Admitted Students Day
This topic is the discussion of our specific experiences at admitted students day and what we have chosen. It is pulled from the discussion here. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here. | | | Issues of competition | |
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> | -- AndrewCase - 02 Apr 2009 | | | | |
>
> | In my opinion, the admitted students event experiences should not be different based upon where it is you're choosing between. I think that the most helpful people I spoke to were the forthright ones who knew that they can't really compare their law school to other schools (since they don't attend them and only know superficial information that the admitted students also know). People will make their own decisions based upon their perceptions at each school; all we can do is try to provide an accurate representation of Columbia's academic life, student organizations, and faculty. On the other hand, telling individuals why Columbia is better than say, NYU, makes it seem like we are trying to prove something. I've always adopted the cliche, honesty is the best policy; we don't want people attending our law school for the wrong reasons (because someone convinced them at admitted students day) and later despising this atmosphere. If we let them know what exactly it is that Columbia offers, then students can make the best choices for themselves. Sometimes that will mean choosing Columbia over "higher prestige" schools (and sometimes it will mean the opposite), sometimes it will mean convincing someone that law school is the right decision for them, and hopefully it will always mean an accurate explanation of the competitive nature of law students. | | | | |
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< | -- AndrewCase - 02 Apr 2009 | >
> | -- LaurenRosenberg - 02 Apr 2009 |
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AdmittedStudentsOurDecisions 1 - 02 Apr 2009 - Main.AndrewCase
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Our Experiences at Admitted Students Day
This topic is the discussion of our specific experiences at admitted students day and what we have chosen. It is pulled from the discussion here. For the specific issue of choosing CLS over a public state school, see here.
NYU vs. Columbia
One major focus of the Admitted Students Day is to convince students that there are substantive opportunities for public interest. This either is designed to appeal to students simply because incoming students often speak of wanting to do public interest work, or is specifically targeted to counter the prevailing perception that NYU is more public-interest friendly than Columbia. Following are individual recollections of this sale and the following decision-making process
At admitted students day at both NYU and Columbia last year, Columbia sold the prestige of the school, the expertise of the professors, and the dynamic current students. Columbia then sent an enormous number of materials after admission. What else would you expect the school to do? NYU sent materials as well, and had alumns who had chosen NYU over CLS call to talk about the decisionmaking process.
Our role in the process
During Admitted Students Day, I found myself cheerleading for Columbia at various events. Others say this is 'perpetuating the con.' I don’t know if I’ve just completely guzzled the law school Kool-Aid, but I am happy here, and don't feel like I'm conning anyone, but I wonder if I'm in the minority, of if others are having conflicts.
The admitted students program follows a script -- the admit knows which questions to ask, and which answers to expect, and the student provides them. Glorifying CLS's public interest focus, for the purpose of selling the school, reeks like a con.
Although it is a script, we can easily change it: just make a conscious effort to be very thoughtful and as honest as possible in your discussions with admitted students next year. Instead of telling the admits about things they probably can't understand or be interested in until they actually interface with the law (e.g., public interest), I generally try to let my happiness with Columbia shine through. If anything, the approach makes me feel less like a conman.
Other possible topics not discussed, feel free to add your experiences:
Columbia vs. "higher prestige" schools (did anyone make this decision? how was it sold to you?)
Choosing to go to law school at all
Issues of competition
-- AndrewCase - 02 Apr 2009 |
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