I have a few concerns about class discussion and I am not sure this is the best place to address this. (Perhaps the wiki bill of rights topic would be more appropriate, but here goes). When Kate and Eben were discussing Kate’s notion that no act is altruistic (forgive me vulgarizing your argument), I was too distracted by the tone of the discussion to think about altruism. Eben, I am not really sure what to make of your chuckles in response to Kate’s arguments. (I am not humorless I swear!) I just don’t see how chuckling fosters discussion, and her comments were not especially funny. I was most bothered by the “That’s cute.” If she hadn't been a women of a certain age, I do not think her comments would have been nearly as cute.

-- ThaliaJulme - 29 Jan 2008

I have a few concerns about class discussion and I am not sure this is the best place to address this. (Perhaps the wiki bill of rights topic would be more appropriate, but here goes). When Kate and Eben were discussing Kate’s notion that no act is altruistic (forgive me vulgarizing your argument), I was too distracted by the tone of the discussion to think about altruism. Eben, I am not really sure what to make of your chuckles in response to Kate’s arguments. (I am not humorless I swear!) I just don’t see how chuckling fosters discussion, and her comments were not especially funny. I was most bothered by the “That’s cute.” If she hadn't been a women of a certain age, I do not think her comments would have been nearly as cute.

-- ThaliaJulme - 29 Jan 2008

oops i posted twice. Sorry.

-- ThaliaJulme - 29 Jan 2008

Theodore, I wrote a really long post trying to explain exactly what you have so well explained for me. Thank you. My point, however, was that the way we commonly use the word "duty" - to mean something we feel a strong moral desire to do - was already reflected in many of our statements. So my point was that actually using the word "duty" would have added nothing to our statements and its omission should leave no ground for protest unless of course we are in fact supposed to think of the word "duty" as referring to some sort of debt or obligation to the government or society at large.

-- KateVershov - 26 Jan 2008

It is easy to argue that the type of act that Ted mentioned above is performed out of self interest, however it is a meaningless argument. The "self interest" you are speaking of in order to make this claim is very broadly defined; the meaning must resolve to something like "in accordance with one's own personal desires." Of course this is true, but the claim thus is something like "People do things because they want to." Not a very profound statement.

Note that the definition of "self interest" you are left with does not correspond to the generally understood definition of the term. The fallacy comes when you then try to take the (true) statement "One only acts out of self interest" and put it in another context.

When you take the self interest statement and claim that therefore everyone is selfish, or that acting in a "self interested" manner is justified or beneficial, you are now using a different, more narrow definition of self interest. This "self interest" is associated with greed and selfishness, and is not at all similar to the type of "self interest" used to prove the original statement.

The fallacy is thus similar to me saying:

"Every type of canine is a dog. The law says that one can own a dog as a pet. Therefore I can own a wolf as a pet"

Each statement is true... but the "dog" I am talking about in the first sentence is broadly defined to encompass the taxonomic family, whereas the "dog" in the second sentence is narrowly defined to be the domestic dog, Canis familiaris.

I suppose my point simply is: Of course all action is, in a very broad sense, directed at the self. We generally know what people mean when they say duty, however, and because of this, the word does have a real meaning.

Kate's point that the term "duty" can be used to excuse the coercive power of government or society is well taken, but I don't think we need to get rid of the word to make the point. Like every word, "duty" can be understood in different ways - just be clear how you mean it when you use it, and we will all be happy and intelligible.

-- TheodoreSmith - 26 Jan 2008

I disagree with the idea that self-interest impels all action.

Cardozo said "Danger invites rescue." Consider the story of Wesley Autrey, the "Subway Hero" (link below). Of course Autrey benefited from his actions in the end, but had he performed a pure self-interest cost-benefit analysis, doing nothing for this stranger and feeling guilty about it would have weighed more heavily than risking death and being lauded for it.

Another example that comes to mind is Arland Williams, the "sixth survivor" of Air Florida Flight 90 (link below). It seems to me that if Williams had acted in his self-interest, he would have been better off grabbing the lifeline for himself and feeling bad about failing to save some strangers than passing the lifeline to others and drowning.

There are several things that drive people to act against their self-interest, including fear and inertia (as Eben talked about the first day), and yes, altruism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Autrey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arland_D._Williams_Jr.

-- TedKreit - 25 Jan 2008