Rory: I appreciate your point that OCS is under a lot of pressure, and that Columbia's stature is connected with its graduate employment rate. However, there's a middle ground between admitting to students that "there are no jobs left" and what happened yesterday. Saying that layoffs are often unrelated to the firm's economic performance (or whatever the metric is) -- and can even be an indicator that a firm is healthy -- was a blatant lie that offended many, many students.

Also, what's with the packet being private?

-- JessicaCohen - 23 Apr 2010

@ Rory. Top 5 is important to me and I understand why they feel pressure to keep our rankings up. If the way to do that is making sure all students are employed, I don't think yesterday's meeting was successful. I am all for people getting the firm jobs that they want.

As for my "formalist" analysis, I did not realize that CAREER services was only for private law jobs until yesterday.

Anyway, it is over and I am not trying to get into an anti-EIP battle, just wanted to share my anti-EIP meeting sentiments. Finally, you misread my sentiment because I don't feel afraid.

-- NonaFarahnik - 23 Apr 2010

As I read these posts, it all seems to stem from us being really scared. They all basically revolve around the criticism of OCS not telling us 'the truth' (which I deal with below), but I can't help but think that if you really believe what Eben has said than 1) you already know the truth, so what difference does it make, and 2) why would you care, and why were you at EIP orientation anyways? The only conclusion I can come to is that we all apparently still desperately want these jobs, so we are freaking out when people aren't telling us that they aren't there (as if that would somehow make us feel better).

Obviously it would be nice if they were straightforward, but maybe it's worthwhile to think about why they weren't. First of all, the law firms don't give them clear numbers about deferrals, etc. so it's hard to pin down exactly what the stats are. Second, they are under HUGE pressure from the dean to keep employment numbers up in whatever way possible. They are under an enormous amount of stress to find whatever scraps are left, and are doing their best to do so. You think if they went into orientation and told us 'sorry, no jobs left' some heads wouldn't roll? Would you put your job on the line for that? Lastly, they are also under huge pressure to keep numbers up so we don't drop in the rankings. Maybe we all don't think it's a laudable goal, but ask yourself why you went to CLS instead of plenty of other cheaper law schools before you write it off (and if you say for quality of education/professors, think about how that might be tied to rankings in this admittedly crazy system we're in).

Of course it would be nice if they were straight up, and OCS is certainly not innocent of some smokescreening. My only point is that we should all do a little self reflection about why it happens, and why it bothers us so much, before we lash out.

(And I like the textualist/formalist analysis of the office of CAREER services, but we all know their job is to place students in private law jobs. Maybe the name isn't great, but it's just a name)

-- RorySkaggs - 23 Apr 2010

I thought the whole thing was a joke. Aside from the fact that you could have found all the information on their website, it was outrageous to have to sit through an hour long lie. I just wonder if they know they are misrepresenting the truth when they get up there and tell us those things, or if they really believe what they are saying.

@Krystal - right on with the comment about the layoffs. Maybe layoffs make a firm more profitable for the equity partners, but it sure doesn't make it a more attractive option for 1Ls looking to get hired.

@Nona - totally agree with you about the "Career Services" name. If they were actually Career Services they would help students with ALL kinds of job searches, not just trying to funnel us into the same firms year after year. Why is somebody who helps students find jobs with government/NGOs/non-profits excluded from working for Career Services?

One last thing - has anyone seen those fliers around JG encouraging people to donate one day of summer pay to public interest? I thought that money was guaranteed by Columbia and I thought THEY were going to pay for it instead of asking students to contribute to the fund on top of the $50K we already pay them. Isn't it ridiculous that public interest has to beg people to give them money to pay for guaranteed funding?

-- NathanStopper - 23 Apr 2010

LOL @ this. My only question is : why lie to us? If you're nervous, say so. If you're not sure, say so. Tell us we need to start thinking in new ways about the field to make our mark. We know what's happening around us and I kind of find it offensive that they think we aren't "tracking" this ourselves and could even begin to believe some of the statements. "Layoffs don't indicate that firms are in economic [struggle]" (or something like that) WHAT?!?! I LOL'd at that in the meeting. It was a blatant lie. If layoffs don't indicate a firm's stability (or lack thereof)...what do they indicate? I also found it interesting how many law students who were leaving called "bullsh!t" on that whole meeting. The Kent Scholars comment was hilarity. Most of us aren't Kent Scholars...so ummm...where does that leave the rest of us?!

All in all...good times. Typical law school moment. I'm unimpressed.

Oh Nona, I also laughed when you asked your question. I couldn't hear what you were saying but I knew it was a "give 'em hell" moment.

-- KrystalCommons - 23 Apr 2010

Oh one more thing:

@Ashley.

I think that SOMEONE has to grow a pair and start telling the truth. I'm not sure if I'll partake in EIP, more likely than not I will because I'd like to keep my options open. However, who cares if it winds up on Abovethelaw.com. What would the headline be? "COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL TELLS STUDENTS THE TRUTH?!" The problem is that they are blatantly lying to us. I know they are just doing their jobs, keeping their connections to firms, etc. But this is Columbia Law School. How much will their relationships be effected? The name speaks for itself. We shouldn't have to go one by one into the office to beg for real information. This is our lives. Aren't they "career services"? Shouldn't they be helping us build careers in whatever area it is that we want? I just think there was way too much nonsense being spewed. Whether or not they felt attacked, they should've been prepared for it. People are NERVOUS.I'm not so concerned about their nerves, they have jobs. People who are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to be here. It was almost sad -- the other day I saw the Class Gift table and there was a 3L (I assume) standing there saying to someone who was tabling- "If I give, will they actually read my comment about how ridiculous I think it is for them to still be asking us to give money when many of us don't even have jobs and they won't give us any honest answers?". I mean...come ooonnnnnn...let's live in reality for a moment. Even if it's just one, I'd be present. I don't care about their nerves or sensitive feelings or their "fragile" relationships, I don't believe the hype. (woosah...lol. I'm done)

-- KrystalCommons - 23 Apr 2010