| | a.k.a. Grading Professors So WE Get Better Feedback
From Eben: |
| | @Eben Thank you for your guidance. I would like to hear more about why the below idea is "ridiculous," but understand that you do not want the class to go in that direction. |
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< | I am not sure where to go now however. Perhaps you can help. While you make a strict distinction between education reform and lawyering, isn't it largely lawyers who write education policy. Certainly law school policy is created and changed by lawyers. From Robinson I took away that a "real lawyer knows how to take care of a legal problem." Advocating for an administrative change to improve a problem is exactly the kind of thing I hope to do as a lawyer. I thought as an aspiring lawyer it is appropriate for me to learn to take care of legal problem. Am I thinking about being a lawyer incorrectly or Am I thinking about your class incorrectly? |
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> | I am not sure where to go now however. Perhaps you can help. While you make a strict distinction between education reform and lawyering, isn't it largely lawyers who write education policy. Certainly law school policy is created and changed by lawyers. From Robinson I took away that a "real lawyer knows how to take care of a legal problem." Advocating for an administrative change to improve a problem is exactly the kind of thing I hope to do as a lawyer. I thought as an aspiring lawyer it is appropriate for me to learn to take care of legal problem. Am I thinking about being a lawyer incorrectly or Am I thinking about your class incorrectly? [Alex, I changed the order of your I(s) and am(s) in order to make sense with your ?, if this is not what you intended I apologize.-Rob] |
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| | -- RorySkaggs - 13 Feb 2010 |
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< | I think the value here is in exactly what you downplayed Rory: future students would have a better idea of what to expect from professors. Any additional knowledge students can have about these mysterious tendencies would be a benefit to them. There is even a possibility that a student who is armed with the knowledge can realize that certain professors need to be pushed much more during the semester in order to give the type of feedback they want. I think to sit back and say that because these professors publish articles we are powerless to change what goes on in our education is lying down. We can certainly have a realistic view of things, but we shouldn't let that deter us from even trying to be lawyers...aka make change using words. These reviews are exactly the type of vehicles that allow us to take action; they are publications of our words to our target audience. If we can't believe we can make change with them, we are in serious trouble as young lawyers.
-- RobLaser - 14 Feb 2010 |
| | @Rob- I think you're confusing the necessity to change a problem with differences regarding how to do it. I also think you are addressing a different problem than Alex did-- my understanding was that Alex was proposing this idea in an effort to change what professors do, not to just let the students know about what happens. And my point is that if we are trying to change what professors do, this seems a rather passive way to do it. As I mentioned, do professors change in response to student evaluations? And more importantly, does administration put any pressure on them to give feedback to us? If we really want to change the system, we have to attack it directly, not just by telling each other what we already know. We need to change how classes, and probably the whole curriculum, are structured. I'm not at all sure how to do that, all I'm saying is adding another box to class evals doesn't seem like the best or most effective way to do it. |
| | -- RorySkaggs - 15 Feb 2010 |
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< | I think this is a place to start. It is an easy way to get our words to our intended audience (the administration, faculty, and students). I don't think we should turn down any vehicle to make our words heard.
@Rory- I seem to have misunderstood the extent to which you were criticizing the suggestion. There does not seem to be much disagreement between us.
-- RobLaser - 15 Feb 2010 |
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> | As practice in reduction and editing, my thoughts on this is it is an easily attainable way to alert students to professors who provide quality feedback. I think that is a good thing. As for changing the structure of the legal education, I doubt it would have an effect. That is all, let's move on to other things now. |
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< | Since there appears to be agreement that evaluations may not be earth shattering but will be easy to institute, I suggest that we turn this topic into a discussion about more radical ways in which we can change these policies. I recommend we hold a sit in at the faculty lounge. Feel free to brainstorm. |
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> | -- Main. RobLaser? - 17 Feb 2010 |
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< | PS: I'm serious, and considering Mr. Skaggs's comments, I expect you to be with me Rory  |
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< | -- RobLaser - 15 Feb 2010 |
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< | I think we also need to refine our goals to something specific an reasonably attainable. I suggest individual feedback on exams and/or 1 hour midterms that are not graded but are given feedback. Thoughts?
-- RobLaser - 15 Feb 2010 |
| | @Rob and @Rory - Thanks for the feedback! I very much appreciate you taking the time to consider this idea.
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| | -- RorySkaggs - 15 Feb 2010 |
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< | [I have set up a new topic regarding Rory's comment about our professors often never having practiced.]
http://moglen.law.columbia.edu/twiki/bin/view/LawContempSoc/LawProfessorsWhoNeverPracticed
I think Rory makes good points about the feedback. As for the sit in idea, it was more about trying to alert the faculty to exactly how serious a problem we feel this is. It was not intended as an adversarial attack, but more of a wake up call that may not be communicated simply from reading the evaluations. A more dramatic, face to face statement may be more effective.
I agree with Rory that more fundamental changes need to take place. I would really like law school to look extremely different from the shape it takes right now. However, I would be behind efforts to get more feedback in the current system as I feel it would provide immediate, positive results while we continue to work towards larger goals.
That being said, I echo Alex's request for anyone to post any information they have on the process required to institute evaluation of feedback. |
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< | -- RobLaser - 15 Feb 2010 |
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