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InLawSchoolsGradesGoUpJustLikeThat 16 - 29 Jun 2010 - Main.JonathanWaisnor
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| | I'm sure many of you have read the recent NYT Article, In Law Schools, Grades Go Up, Just Like That. I have enjoyed reading the comments of the article, which span from adamant support of tossing out the old regime to total disdain for a generation often described as entitled. I must admit, the article gives me a sinking feeling in my stomach, especially as we approach the Fall recruiting season. I fantasize about the minimal, or complete lack of, anxiety students at schools with no grades must be experiencing as they head into the process. What is most striking to me is that quite a few schools with students who compete with Columbia students for employment have made the determination that eliminating traditional grades altogether, or altering the curve, is in the best interest of their students. Even our friendly neighbor to the south has made alterations to its curve. This begs the question, what are Columbia's justifications for not rolling with the tide?
This topic has obviously received great attention in this course, but I still think this article is an interesting read. I would love to hear any comments or reactions people might have. | | | I am left feeling as though Franke is concluding we should shut up and be happy with the grading system as is, because any change would either inconvenience employers or disadvantage minorities/ women (more than usual).
-- KalliopeKefallinos - 29 Jun 2010 | |
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> | Franke's post confused me as well. I think the only instructors that could give an employer more than "he went to class and didn't cause any problems" are Professor Moglen and my LPW instructors. Other than my Civil Procedure professor (who had us write a complaint and a motion, which I found very helpful), they're also the only ones who have seen written work with my name attached. For recommendations to play the role that she thinks they would in a gradeless system, the lines at office hours would probably be down the hall and into the elevator, or it would require professors to adopt a method of teaching law school more like this class or LPW. We could also eliminate first-year employment and move hiring to the third-year so students have time to get to know the professor. All of these things seem unlikely. What's more likely is that employers would use law school pedigree, or maybe even undergraduate institution/GPA and LSAT score to prove how smart we are. This is the closest they can get to approximating lawyering potential. First-year grades move them closer to that mark.
The article is valuable for the admission that eliminating grades won't remove the desire employers have to rank us. Even those schools without the A/B/C grading system still have High Pass or Honors, recognizing that there are certain legal jobs which still require employers to find the "best of the best." But for the majority of the students with just "pass," they're assuming a Harvard or Yale degree is proof enough of that student's ability to practice law. Maybe I am just very cynical, but this seems like an admission that first-year doesn't really add anything skill-wise that can't be picked up on the job by an intelligent person rather quickly.
-- JonathanWaisnor - 29 Jun 2010 | | | |
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InLawSchoolsGradesGoUpJustLikeThat 15 - 29 Jun 2010 - Main.KalliopeKefallinos
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| | I'm sure many of you have read the recent NYT Article, In Law Schools, Grades Go Up, Just Like That. I have enjoyed reading the comments of the article, which span from adamant support of tossing out the old regime to total disdain for a generation often described as entitled. I must admit, the article gives me a sinking feeling in my stomach, especially as we approach the Fall recruiting season. I fantasize about the minimal, or complete lack of, anxiety students at schools with no grades must be experiencing as they head into the process. What is most striking to me is that quite a few schools with students who compete with Columbia students for employment have made the determination that eliminating traditional grades altogether, or altering the curve, is in the best interest of their students. Even our friendly neighbor to the south has made alterations to its curve. This begs the question, what are Columbia's justifications for not rolling with the tide?
This topic has obviously received great attention in this course, but I still think this article is an interesting read. I would love to hear any comments or reactions people might have. | | | Keep in mind, though, this is just one point of view that I happen to know about. I'd love to hear the views of others on this or if anyone else has heard a similar explanation.
-- DavidGoldin - 28 Jun 2010 | |
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On Franke's post:
What bothers me about Franke's blog post is that her biggest concern about any given grading system seems to be the extent to which it might lead employers to rely on recommendations.
I thought recs were intended to qualitatively supplement grades. I recognize that there are efficiency issues for employers which makes them want to rely less on recs, but overall I think it's good to force employers to evaluate potential employees as human beings, not numbers. Alas, Franke warns me that the recs disproportionately favor white males. Intuitively, the connection is tenuous at best but let's assume it's true. But wait, I thought the entire American educational and economic system ultimately favored white males. An alleged rec bias is therefore so trivial a concern as to be laughable...
I am left feeling as though Franke is concluding we should shut up and be happy with the grading system as is, because any change would either inconvenience employers or disadvantage minorities/ women (more than usual).
-- KalliopeKefallinos - 29 Jun 2010 | | | |
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InLawSchoolsGradesGoUpJustLikeThat 14 - 28 Jun 2010 - Main.DavidGoldin
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| | I'm sure many of you have read the recent NYT Article, In Law Schools, Grades Go Up, Just Like That. I have enjoyed reading the comments of the article, which span from adamant support of tossing out the old regime to total disdain for a generation often described as entitled. I must admit, the article gives me a sinking feeling in my stomach, especially as we approach the Fall recruiting season. I fantasize about the minimal, or complete lack of, anxiety students at schools with no grades must be experiencing as they head into the process. What is most striking to me is that quite a few schools with students who compete with Columbia students for employment have made the determination that eliminating traditional grades altogether, or altering the curve, is in the best interest of their students. Even our friendly neighbor to the south has made alterations to its curve. This begs the question, what are Columbia's justifications for not rolling with the tide?
This topic has obviously received great attention in this course, but I still think this article is an interesting read. I would love to hear any comments or reactions people might have. | | | I stopped reading here. I find it absolutely pathetic that a CLS professor (who is making a claim about recruiting) would make such a broad generalization about recruiting that doesn't even include her own school. Which, for someone who has had Franke's experience (and inexperience in the private sector) is probably par for the course.
-- MatthewZorn - 28 Jun 2010 | |
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@Jennifer and Courtney - I don't have 10 years experience out of law school (I have 2) but I worked at a large firm for those years and have a tiny bit of insight into it. I discussed the issue with one of the partners at the firm, and he said that the reason that many (though not all) lawyers are obsessed with school/grades is that it is an easy way for non-lawyers to evaluate the quality of their lawyers.
Unlike construction workers, who produce something tangible (like a building), lawyers in many situations produce very few tangible deliverables for the large amount of work they put in. Thus, it can be hard to evaluate their work. Thus, people tend to evaluate lawyers on their pedigrees. If Lawyer X was a Blah Scholar from Harvard, he must be good.
I don't know if people in the real world evaluate lawyers this way. But it is a belief that some partners have about how their firms and work is judged. As a result, they strive to hire only the top students with lots of awards from the top schools, so they can say "look at our lawyers - they are all so smart and will do a good job". This isn't the best evaluation method, but it does say a lot about the profession.
Keep in mind, though, this is just one point of view that I happen to know about. I'd love to hear the views of others on this or if anyone else has heard a similar explanation.
-- DavidGoldin - 28 Jun 2010 | | | |
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InLawSchoolsGradesGoUpJustLikeThat 13 - 28 Jun 2010 - Main.MatthewZorn
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| | I'm sure many of you have read the recent NYT Article, In Law Schools, Grades Go Up, Just Like That. I have enjoyed reading the comments of the article, which span from adamant support of tossing out the old regime to total disdain for a generation often described as entitled. I must admit, the article gives me a sinking feeling in my stomach, especially as we approach the Fall recruiting season. I fantasize about the minimal, or complete lack of, anxiety students at schools with no grades must be experiencing as they head into the process. What is most striking to me is that quite a few schools with students who compete with Columbia students for employment have made the determination that eliminating traditional grades altogether, or altering the curve, is in the best interest of their students. Even our friendly neighbor to the south has made alterations to its curve. This begs the question, what are Columbia's justifications for not rolling with the tide?
This topic has obviously received great attention in this course, but I still think this article is an interesting read. I would love to hear any comments or reactions people might have. | | | I also wonder whether grade-obsession is really a stand-in for other, deeper fears and anxieties that are harder to talk about, like the law school model itself, which Devin mentions, and the state of the profession in general (i.e. that some of us are going into great debt and working like mad to get jobs that we don't even want).
-- CourtneySmith - 28 Jun 2010 | |
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"Whether applying for clerkships or jobs in private or public interest, judges and employers use grades as the initial filter in sifting through stacks of resumes, but when deciding which of the best students to interview, they typically turn to the recommendations of faculty."
I stopped reading here. I find it absolutely pathetic that a CLS professor (who is making a claim about recruiting) would make such a broad generalization about recruiting that doesn't even include her own school. Which, for someone who has had Franke's experience (and inexperience in the private sector) is probably par for the course.
-- MatthewZorn - 28 Jun 2010 | | | |
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InLawSchoolsGradesGoUpJustLikeThat 12 - 28 Jun 2010 - Main.CourtneySmith
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| | I'm sure many of you have read the recent NYT Article, In Law Schools, Grades Go Up, Just Like That. I have enjoyed reading the comments of the article, which span from adamant support of tossing out the old regime to total disdain for a generation often described as entitled. I must admit, the article gives me a sinking feeling in my stomach, especially as we approach the Fall recruiting season. I fantasize about the minimal, or complete lack of, anxiety students at schools with no grades must be experiencing as they head into the process. What is most striking to me is that quite a few schools with students who compete with Columbia students for employment have made the determination that eliminating traditional grades altogether, or altering the curve, is in the best interest of their students. Even our friendly neighbor to the south has made alterations to its curve. This begs the question, what are Columbia's justifications for not rolling with the tide?
This topic has obviously received great attention in this course, but I still think this article is an interesting read. I would love to hear any comments or reactions people might have. | | | I also think grades give employers a false sense of security: a (sometimes unfounded) belief that they have won the lottery in luring the most intelligent, hardest working, and capable young lawyers to their organizations. However, given the arbitrary nature of grades, and sometimes sheer luck associated with them, it is hard to see why intelligent, hard working, and capable hiring partners would rely on them in this way. As Professor Wu wrote in his post-exam memo, the difference between a good and the best exam were not that great. Given this, as David suggested, one would think that grades would be one aspect of a more holistic assessment of the student as opposed to, in many cases, the sole determinant. Until this happens, I think it is and will continue to be employers' loss.
-- JenniferGreen - 28 Jun 2010 | |
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I would love the perspective of someone five or ten years out of law school on the grades issue. I know it seems very important now, but I am still not at all convinced that it will matter in 2020 whether your GPA at Columbia Law School was a 3.2 or a 3.7.
I also wonder whether grade-obsession is really a stand-in for other, deeper fears and anxieties that are harder to talk about, like the law school model itself, which Devin mentions, and the state of the profession in general (i.e. that some of us are going into great debt and working like mad to get jobs that we don't even want).
-- CourtneySmith - 28 Jun 2010 | | | |
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