InjusticeUSMilitaryVsJohnBrown 13 - 15 Mar 2012 - Main.MichelleLuo
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| Due to the lack of understanding regarding John Brown's actions, I ask the question:
If the government sanctioned it, would that make it right? | | Environmentalists are considered extremists in this country. They are blasphemous in the face of our God, the invisible hand (as Arnold would say). Bizarre world we live in.
-- KippMueller - 14 Mar 2012 | |
> > | Wow, very thoughtful posts, guys! Thank you for sharing such personal experiences. I have so much I want to respond to, but I'll focus on one point for now and continue posting later this week.
William David, responding to your point about using our legal education to fight social injustice, (and this is a point that I'm sure you're already aware of) I think that in order to be effective lawyers, we have to understand that the law is very limited in changing social perceptions:
I was an anthropology major in undergrad and spent a term in New Zealand studying Maori culture and activism. I became particularly interested in the Maori tribe Ngati Whatua's unprecedented victory in fighting colonial land confiscation. For decades, the government manipulated land ownership and evicted Ngati Whatua from their ancestral lands. In 1977, Maori activist Joe Hawke led a landmark protest against subdivision of land at Bastion Point. This demonstration and others publicized the injustices against Maori people and encouraged tribes to pursue legal action against the government. Since the 1980s, public hearings and lawsuits have compelled the Crown to return land to Ngati Whatua and various other tribes. Many of my professors in New Zealand were members of Maori tribes and many were heavily involved in ongoing litigation for indigenous rights (one of my professors was the chief negotiator for her tribe for treaty settlements). I took kapa haka (Maori war dance) classes, volunteered at the Ngati Whatua's meeting house, toured Bastion Point with Joe Hawke’s brother, and protested Waitangi Day (a contentious national holiday commemorating the transfer of Maori sovereignty to the British).
By the time I moved in with my homestay family a month after I first arrived in New Zealand, I was all for "taking to the streets" (or courts, I guess). It turned out that my host father, Graeme, was Ngati Whatua, and I was super excited to talk to him about indigenous rights. I decided to wait for him to bring up Maori issues first. But he didn't. It turned out that Graeme knew fewer Maori words than I did, had only been to the Ngati Whatua marae (meeting house) for funerals, and didn’t care who owned the beaches. When asked about Maori activism, Graeme said conclusively that Maori shouldn’t draw so much attention to themselves.
I didn’t get it. Under British rule, Graeme's tribe lost 95% of their land. The government passed underhanded legislation that turned tribal land into alienable private property and denied Maori people standing in court. Because Maori activists like Joe Hawke fought against these inequities and defended their legal rights, the Crown has conceded to restore $80 million of land to Ngati Whatua. The law was finally on their side, but Graeme didn’t care.
It took a few months of getting to know Graeme to begin to understand where he was coming from. I realized that Graeme’s cavalier attitude toward Maori affairs didn’t accurately reflect his beliefs. When Graeme was little, his teachers beat students for speaking Maori. His mother didn't allow any of her children to speak Maori because she was afraid that they would be looked down upon. She basically taught them that they should behave as "pakeha" (white) as possible because they would have a better life that way. Today, the Crown must take active steps to guarantee the survival of Maori language and culture. Graeme is content with what his people have overcome and fears that too much protest will somehow make things go back to the way they were. He believes that whatever land and cultural revival won through the courts may exacerbate the underlying and more difficult problems of discrimination and ethnocentrism. He doesn’t see those problems going away, and that is why he prefers to identify himself as a New Zealander above a person of Maori descent.
I left New Zealand with the same passion for social justice that compelled me to visit but less certain of the best way to achieve it. Graeme taught me that there are distinctions to be drawn within any social struggle. One component is a very specific struggle to combat a set of rules and practices that treat a group unfairly. Another is a larger struggle to readjust subjective norms. The Maori people of New Zealand have largely, albeit not entirely, accomplished the former through legal and political means. But like Graeme, I don’t know how they will achieve the latter.
-- MichelleLuo - 14 Mar 2012 |
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InjusticeUSMilitaryVsJohnBrown 12 - 14 Mar 2012 - Main.KippMueller
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| Due to the lack of understanding regarding John Brown's actions, I ask the question:
If the government sanctioned it, would that make it right? | | The criminal law provides self-defense as a justification for one's actions. The military realizes this and claims self-defense, but in reality unjustly attacks other nations. Americans need to defend themselves and others against oppression, even if the oppression is facially neutral with a deceptive discriminatory intent. It does not matter if the law supports this form of self-defense or not.
Sometimes issues can be solved through a middle ground. They are definitely some issues, though, where corruption seeps through. It is our duty not to let these issues go unchallenged. | |
> > | -- WilliamDavidWilliams - 14 Mar 2012
Yup yup... yeah this is good stuff! Toma, totally agree. People float with the status quo. I have a friend who's always in the middle when it comes to any issue. I always ask him about it. You have to question yourself when you're always in the middle on issues.
It would be a coincidence of epic proportions to consistently be moderate on issues after having thought them through on your own. Imagine if you were given each issue in a bubble, absent any popular culture, and were asked to assess what you thought on gay marriage or the best economic theory. You're given books by Friedman, Smith, Marx and Keynes and left to your own devices without any outside influence. You're given the Bible and books about gay struggles in America and asked to decide what is right.
The sheer odds that your beliefs again and again would align with what the moderate positions in 2012 America are ridiculously low. You have to entertain the idea at that point that your beliefs are insincere, lazy or sought based on comfort rather than true reflections. The odds of being moderate, right smack dab in the middle on EVERY issue?
Environmentalists are considered extremists in this country. They are blasphemous in the face of our God, the invisible hand (as Arnold would say). Bizarre world we live in.
-- KippMueller - 14 Mar 2012 |
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InjusticeUSMilitaryVsJohnBrown 11 - 14 Mar 2012 - Main.WilliamDavidWilliams
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| Due to the lack of understanding regarding John Brown's actions, I ask the question:
If the government sanctioned it, would that make it right? | | Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind.... Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.... Remember, all I'm offering is the truth, nothing more.... Follow me.... Apoc, are we online? | |
< < | -- | > > | -- WilliamDavidWilliams - 14 Mar 2012 | | | | The link in William's initial post a good provided a good example of this phenomenon: modern warfare. Today's militaries are governed by treaties of war, and armies have developed codes of conduct. Perhaps it can be said that society has advanced in that we can no longer(openly) pillage, rape, burn, and commit acts of genocide against our enemies as did the armies of the distant past. But at the same time, our posterity may view our modes of war as equally barbarous to the way we view the gladiators of Ancient Greece or soldiers of the Spartan armies. Today, to advocate for pacifism seems to be an extreme position, yet it may not be extreme forever. In 1859, it was okay to discuss the depravity of slavery, but to do something about it was treason. In 1870, it was reasonable to allow Black people the right to vote, but proposing to extend this right to women was rebellious. Radicals are vindicated by hindsight. What happens to moderates?
-- TomaLivshiz - 14 Mar 2012 | |
> > | Great post Toma. My thoughts...
"Lukewarm acceptance is more bewildering than outright rejection.” - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Linked above is the last speech Martin Luther King, Jr. made before his assassination. As he became increasingly radical, more people wanted his death. The FBI, under J. Edgar Hoover, begin intense monitoring of King through an effort called COINTELPRO. King started to threaten U.S. class structure with the Poor People's Campaign, which was a multiracial effort designed to minimize poverty in the United States. He also vehemently opposed the Vietnam War and said, "We believe the highest patriotism demands the ending of the war and the opening of a bloodless war to final victory over racism and poverty." The hypocrisy of the war was evident considering the realities of the conditions in the United States. It is still evident today. One soldier was recently caught killing 16 innocent people, including women and children, in their homes in Afghanistan. Even if he is punished, this conduct is not anything new.
It is not necessarily wrong though to share a middle ground about an issue. What is problematic is when you see corruption and do not do anything about it because you want to be safe and not "ruffle any feathers." As Eben said before, when we realize the power we have as people, and come together for a common issue, whether black or white, rich or poor, no one can stop us including the government. As a sidenote, it is interesting how some people criticize the violence of John Brown when the U.S. was begun through the Revolutionary War due to colonists' concerns over direct taxation. I'm sure Britain thought they were "terrorists." John Brown was defending people over something more problematic while others sat idly by because they did not have courage.
Courage demands radicalism. Courage occurs when someone does something that is either highly criticized, never done before, and/or poses incredible risk. Susan B. Anthony and Sojourner Truth demonstrated courage advocating for women's rights. They were radicals and risked death. Several others were killed because of their beliefs.
Moderates on everything are never remembered and often suffer from internal conflict. That is what happens to them. I would suggest picking at least one issue right now that you deeply care about and would be willing to risk your life advocating for. Then, I would use your law degree to fight for it.
The criminal law provides self-defense as a justification for one's actions. The military realizes this and claims self-defense, but in reality unjustly attacks other nations. Americans need to defend themselves and others against oppression, even if the oppression is facially neutral with a deceptive discriminatory intent. It does not matter if the law supports this form of self-defense or not.
Sometimes issues can be solved through a middle ground. They are definitely some issues, though, where corruption seeps through. It is our duty not to let these issues go unchallenged. |
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InjusticeUSMilitaryVsJohnBrown 10 - 14 Mar 2012 - Main.TomaLivshiz
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| Due to the lack of understanding regarding John Brown's actions, I ask the question:
If the government sanctioned it, would that make it right? | | Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind.... Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.... Remember, all I'm offering is the truth, nothing more.... Follow me.... Apoc, are we online? | |
> > | --
William David, Kipp, Michelle, I thought all your points were really interesting and the stories you all shared moving. Placing faith in the law allows many of us to sideline questions of morality altogether, leading us to participate in many forms of contemporary slavery.
I wonder if the same is true of being "moderate". This label is often given respect -- it connotes rationality, compromise and restraint. Sometimes this respect is deserved, but there are times when it is misplaced. In the past, I have found myself retreating to the moderate position frequently, even when my heart lies to the left of an issue. Doing so is easy--it is convenient. But recently, I have grown less satisfied with the fact that my principles function like a pendulum, always culminating in a compromise between two positions. Equilibrium is not justice. It is just that the position can feel so comfortable that we delude ourselves into thinking that it is.
When does being moderate stop being right? In the world of John Brown, to be moderate meant to accept some forms of racism and discrimination, short of slavery itself. For this reason, even abolitionists of the era were quick to disassociate themselves from his mission. It was in the interest of being moderate that the ratifiers of the 14th amendment chose to abolish slavery but retain segregated schools. Moderate positions allow society to move the fulcrum closer toward justice, without demanding it outright. But in a lot of instances this simply means allowing injustice to persist in a slightly dampened way.
The link in William's initial post a good provided a good example of this phenomenon: modern warfare. Today's militaries are governed by treaties of war, and armies have developed codes of conduct. Perhaps it can be said that society has advanced in that we can no longer(openly) pillage, rape, burn, and commit acts of genocide against our enemies as did the armies of the distant past. But at the same time, our posterity may view our modes of war as equally barbarous to the way we view the gladiators of Ancient Greece or soldiers of the Spartan armies. Today, to advocate for pacifism seems to be an extreme position, yet it may not be extreme forever. In 1859, it was okay to discuss the depravity of slavery, but to do something about it was treason. In 1870, it was reasonable to allow Black people the right to vote, but proposing to extend this right to women was rebellious. Radicals are vindicated by hindsight. What happens to moderates?
-- TomaLivshiz - 14 Mar 2012 |
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InjusticeUSMilitaryVsJohnBrown 9 - 14 Mar 2012 - Main.WilliamDavidWilliams
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| Due to the lack of understanding regarding John Brown's actions, I ask the question:
If the government sanctioned it, would that make it right? | | What blue pills am I really missing?
-- KippMueller - 13 Mar 2012 | |
> > | Kipp - Two comments:
1) I was definitely referring to more than just "psychological slavery" as a result of race. Michelle's mention of the Jane Elliot experiment made me think about physical characteristics, but it definitely can be extended (e.g. blind patriotism). Race is one of the extreme forms of it, if you are effectively conditioned.
2) I understand your concern with the immorality associated with the quest for the dollar or capital, although the blue pill doesn't necessarily symbolize that. I think if more people knew the facts regarding how some of their consumer products are made or how labor is commodified, many would not buy those products anymore. Thus, many people for health are seeking Trader Joe's and Whole Foods instead of McDonald's and Burger King. The problem is actually finding the ethical companies, if one is interested in them.
But I am referring to only one pill. If people understood the "truth" about these products, they would not be taking the blue pill. The blue pill is taken when you believe everything that is told to you from "leaders" and refuse to question. The red pill means you decide to seek the truth and likely will be willing to fight against the powers who have blinded society.
Below is the applicable excerpt from The Matrix. Thanks for posting.
Morpheus: Do you want to know what IT is? The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us, even now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind.... Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.... Remember, all I'm offering is the truth, nothing more.... Follow me.... Apoc, are we online? |
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