Law in Contemporary Society

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IsBeingACorporateLawyerImmoral 9 - 27 Feb 2009 - Main.GavinSnyder
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I think Professor Moglen once said that the concept of giving money to the poor while earning money as a corporate lawyer is all good, but it assumes that the work itself has a neutral moral value. Does that imply that being a corporate lawyer is (or could be) immoral? What is so different between being a corporate lawyer and being a blue collar worker? We respect people working in the Ford factory because they work hard to make an honest living. Aren’t they both trying to make a living to support themselves and their family? Is there more difference than their income?
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 -- LeslieHannay - 27 Feb 2009
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Hey, no problem Leslie.

I'm just an instrument of Godwin's law.

 
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-- GavinSnyder - 27 Feb 2009
 
 
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IsBeingACorporateLawyerImmoral 8 - 27 Feb 2009 - Main.LeslieHannay
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I think Professor Moglen once said that the concept of giving money to the poor while earning money as a corporate lawyer is all good, but it assumes that the work itself has a neutral moral value. Does that imply that being a corporate lawyer is (or could be) immoral? What is so different between being a corporate lawyer and being a blue collar worker? We respect people working in the Ford factory because they work hard to make an honest living. Aren’t they both trying to make a living to support themselves and their family? Is there more difference than their income?
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 -- GavinSnyder - 27 Feb 2009
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This idea that "someone has to do it, and so why not me?" was troubling to me when it first appeared in this thread. Thank you, Gavin, for the SS analogy. There's nothing like comparing Big Law to the Nazis to get me out of my chair and into the conversation. Like the German youth 1942 (at least the ones eligible to be in the SS, i.e. the youth who were not being systematically targeted, marginalized, imprisoned, etc) we, the lottery winners, have the choice to participate in the machinery of death, run away (dropping out and moving to Argentina is my current daydream) OR use the power that we have to dismantle the machine.*

Where the 'if not me, then someone else' rationale misses a step, I think, is in its assumption that (1) the machine is inevitable (we have been over this already, at length), and that therefore (2) our participation in it is neutral in effect and has no weight as a moral decision (ditto). **

What is interesting to me is that the “someone has to do it, and so why not me?” line of thinking played a major part in convincing me to come to law school in the first place. My reasoning was as follows: 1) most of the people who are fortunate enough to be able to get into a top law school will do so in order to make a lot of money by serving the corporations that are destroying everything that I love about, well, everything; (2) someone has to get educated in a way to work effectively to fight back; (3) since the number of people who are in this class of lucky people is relatively small, and as I happen to be among that group, I might as well throw myself into the fray.

*Just to be clear, of course I'm not saying that Big Law = Nazis

** I was going to try to link to our threads on these points but the server's slow right now so I'll have to do that later.

-- LeslieHannay - 27 Feb 2009

 
 
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IsBeingACorporateLawyerImmoral 7 - 27 Feb 2009 - Main.GavinSnyder
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I think Professor Moglen once said that the concept of giving money to the poor while earning money as a corporate lawyer is all good, but it assumes that the work itself has a neutral moral value. Does that imply that being a corporate lawyer is (or could be) immoral? What is so different between being a corporate lawyer and being a blue collar worker? We respect people working in the Ford factory because they work hard to make an honest living. Aren’t they both trying to make a living to support themselves and their family? Is there more difference than their income?
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 I would hesitate to say that corporate law work is inherently immoral because of the details I mentioned, but more importantly because I think it feeds into a binary mindset where corporate=bad and public interest/government=good, which isn't entirely accurate. To state the obvious, the government has blood on its hands and is known to falsely imprison and torture and otherwise violate people. And not all self-declared do-gooders actually do good, even if they think they do. Moral risk exists in varying degrees across a spectrum, it's not something that's only there in large corporate law firms. Again, this is an obvious point, but it's easy to overlook in all the focus on not selling your soul for a firm job.

-- AnjaliBhat - 26 Feb 2009

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Esther, I think you raise a good point when you ask who should be corporate lawyers if we won't.

Biglaw associates are fungible cogs. In any economy (but especially this one), if the entire CLS class refused to join Biglaw, the positions we forsook would just be filled up with graduates from other schools. The net amount of evil produced by Biglaw work could be said to be the same whether we participate personally or not.

But everyone considers themselves more conscientious than the next guy, right? Wouldn't we be able to mitigate the evil of a Biglaw position better by being there in person rather than letting someone else do it? You wouldn't be able to directly sabotage, of course...but you'd be a voice in the room able to influence events for the better.

Consider: it's 1942 and you're a German youth. Do you join the SS or flee Europe? Assuming there would have been someone else ready to take your place in the SS, you could do more good by joining. You'd be able to save lives working on the inside, if you could only resist the Stanford Prison Experiment effect. If you did the "evil" thing, you'd make the world a better place. If you fled, you'd help no one.

So I don't think Professor Moglen's approach is the only way to look at the issue. It does make intuitive sense to compare the net evil one does as a Biglaw attorney to the amount one is able to donate to charity. But we could instead compare the amount of evil one could mitigate as a Biglaw attorney to the amount of good one could produce elsewhere. Basically: working within the system can be better than throwing rocks at it from outside.

-- GavinSnyder - 27 Feb 2009

 
 
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IsBeingACorporateLawyerImmoral 6 - 26 Feb 2009 - Main.AnjaliBhat
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I think Professor Moglen once said that the concept of giving money to the poor while earning money as a corporate lawyer is all good, but it assumes that the work itself has a neutral moral value. Does that imply that being a corporate lawyer is (or could be) immoral? What is so different between being a corporate lawyer and being a blue collar worker? We respect people working in the Ford factory because they work hard to make an honest living. Aren’t they both trying to make a living to support themselves and their family? Is there more difference than their income?
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 Alex teases out two ideas that are often conflated, namely whether one's work is morally just and whether it is personally satisfying. The two concerns don't always track neatly. Like Alex says, many corporate lawyers actually enjoy their work -- but I disagree that the work is always morally neutral. Likewise, people may pursue justice, but find the bulk of their day just as stultifying as corporate work, or frustrating for other reasons (Robinson does not appear very happy).

-- AndrewCase - 24 Feb 2009

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I like Esther's comparison to criminal defense lawyers, which is counter-intuitive because at first glance there's a huge difference between a (probably impoverished) non-white-collar criminal and a big corporation. But I think it works nonetheless because it lets us see the problem of working for a big firm as a special subset of the broader ethical problem: the lawyer's ethical identification with his/her client. A lawyer is supposed to do what's best for the individual client even if that may not comport with a more general vision of what is just or otherwise good for society.

So no matter who you're working for, you're in an ethically risky area. Working for a large law firm can exponentially add to that risk because of how much autonomy you're surrendering. After all, if you're promising to put a client's interests above almost all else, you should think long and hard about who that client is and what its interests are. But at a large corporate law firm, people often can't do that. This makes such work morally risky. Not necessarily immoral--that probably depends on what kind of law you're doing, and at what kind of firm, and with what kind of client, and other such details. But the risk that it's immoral goes up.

I would hesitate to say that corporate law work is inherently immoral because of the details I mentioned, but more importantly because I think it feeds into a binary mindset where corporate=bad and public interest/government=good, which isn't entirely accurate. To state the obvious, the government has blood on its hands and is known to falsely imprison and torture and otherwise violate people. And not all self-declared do-gooders actually do good, even if they think they do. Moral risk exists in varying degrees across a spectrum, it's not something that's only there in large corporate law firms. Again, this is an obvious point, but it's easy to overlook in all the focus on not selling your soul for a firm job.

-- AnjaliBhat - 26 Feb 2009

 
 
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IsBeingACorporateLawyerImmoral 5 - 24 Feb 2009 - Main.AndrewCase
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I think Professor Moglen once said that the concept of giving money to the poor while earning money as a corporate lawyer is all good, but it assumes that the work itself has a neutral moral value. Does that imply that being a corporate lawyer is (or could be) immoral? What is so different between being a corporate lawyer and being a blue collar worker? We respect people working in the Ford factory because they work hard to make an honest living. Aren’t they both trying to make a living to support themselves and their family? Is there more difference than their income?
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 -- AlexHu - 24 Feb 2009
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Alex teases out two ideas that are often conflated, namely whether one's work is morally just and whether it is personally satisfying. The two concerns don't always track neatly. Like Alex says, many corporate lawyers actually enjoy their work -- but I disagree that the work is always morally neutral. Likewise, people may pursue justice, but find the bulk of their day just as stultifying as corporate work, or frustrating for other reasons (Robinson does not appear very happy).

-- AndrewCase - 24 Feb 2009

 
 
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Revision 9r9 - 27 Feb 2009 - 17:25:00 - GavinSnyder
Revision 8r8 - 27 Feb 2009 - 16:09:04 - LeslieHannay
Revision 7r7 - 27 Feb 2009 - 07:51:51 - GavinSnyder
Revision 6r6 - 26 Feb 2009 - 20:13:11 - AnjaliBhat
Revision 5r5 - 24 Feb 2009 - 13:13:04 - AndrewCase
Revision 4r4 - 24 Feb 2009 - 06:23:33 - AlexHu
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