| | |
|
MagicAccordingToFrank 11 - 02 Feb 2008 - Main.AndrewGradman
|
| |
| META TOPICPARENT | name="TextDiscussionCohenandFrank" |
|---|
Eben alluded to us not quite getting the meaning of "magic" according to Frank. Let's use this space to work it out.
-- AdamCarlis - 02 Feb 2008 | | | "Magic" and "technology" are both tools to solve practical problems, but technology relies on science (experience); magic on hope. Magic supplants science when 1) "ignorance is thickest about the way of things" and 2) "dangers are the greatest". | |
<
< | I. What's necessary for magic: unknown, danger, and circumstances where luck plays a major role. The magical trial-by-ordeal arose when facts/history ["unknown"] was needed to determine perjury ["danger"]. Modern "rule magic" arises out of a similar reality where finding facts is subjective (unknown) and so there is great uncertainty and potential danger. [Adam, Frank includes "circumstances where luck plays a major role", but I omitted it because it seemed to describe ANY activity before the application of science or magic, and seemed synonymous with "unknown". Also, your paraphrase of my last sentence omits the quote from Frank which includes the "necessary" element of danger. I think your edits improve clarity at the cost of correctness.] | >
> | I. What's necessary for magic: unknown, danger, and circumstances where luck plays a major role. The magical trial-by-ordeal arose when facts/history ["unknown"] was needed to determine perjury ["danger"]. Modern "rule magic" arises out of a similar reality where finding facts is subjective (unknown) and so there is great uncertainty and potential danger. | | | II. What's sufficient for magic: unknown and danger ... in sufficient degree? What makes modern lawyers SUFFICIENTLY unwilling to "acknowledge the immense hazards" etc.? Since a just outcome depends on truth-telling ["unknown"], and since the outcome may deprive a man of his life ["danger"], successful perjury is as grave a danger as storm flood or lightening (44) and the modern trial warrants magic as much as deep-sea fishing (43). But this answer doesn't satisfy. Maybe Frank, writing in 1949, had the Munich Agreement in mind when he realized that subjectivity could be a general threat, and that faith in rules were a form of self-gratifying denial. | | | -- AndrewGradman - 02 Feb 2008
Additional edits made AdamCarlis - 02 Feb 2008
| |
<
< | Comments on Adam's edits -- AndrewGradman - 02 Feb 2008 | >
> | [Adam, I think your edits improve clarity at the cost of correctness. Frank includes "circumstances where luck plays a major role", but I omitted it because it seemed to describe ANY activity before the application of science or magic, and seemed synonymous with "unknown". Also, your paraphrase of my last sentence omits the quote from Frank which includes the "necessary" element of danger, so that we get uncertainty and danger out of uncertainty. Now it looks like I'm saying "1 + 0 = 2"] -- AndrewGradman - 02 Feb 2008 | | | Andrew, I think Frank's quote on the top of page 43 supports your definition of magic: "Magic, then, appears to be primitive man's ways of dealing with specific practical problems when he is in peril or in need, and his strong desires are thwarted because his rational techniques, based upon observation, prove ineffective." |
|
|
|
|
This site is powered by the TWiki collaboration platform.
All material on this collaboration platform is the property of the contributing authors.
All material marked as authored by Eben Moglen is available under the license terms CC-BY-SA version 4.
|
|
| | |