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PawningOurLicenses 24 - 04 Feb 2010 - Main.JessicaHallett
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| | A major theme of the class seems to include that many, if not most, Columbia students will go out and pawn their licenses. This idea seems to strongly correlate with the vast percentage of students who go to work for a corporate law firm, though is not the only way this pawning occurs. What I want to ask is why do so many students choose this career path when most are aware of the consequences, for themselves and society, that result from that decision. This is something I am currently wrestling with, and will not deny that I am looking towards a possible career at a large law firm if I could get one. The dilemma I am facing is why do I want such a career, knowing that most associates seem to be miserable at their jobs, the ratio of pay/hours worked, and the chance of promotion is minimal within the firm so that will never have any real control and end up getting trapped in a certain lifestyle that becomes hard to escape from. From my perspective, it is hard to pinpoint the source, because I can't really believe that Columbia actively pushes it more so than other careers, and people find ways of paying of their loans one way or another, just the length of time it takes will differ. What I seem to question myself lately is do such large corporate firms actually give monetary rewards and prestige that is worth it and can actually be utilized towards a true career path. That I don't know. What seems to force so many students hands is that we are forced to choose a career after one year of law school, having taken no substantive course work or ability to explore different fields. This is a strange contrast to college where many of us took at least 2 years to figure out what major, and even longer to figure out what we want to do afterward. So why do so many of us choose to work for a large law firm?
-- DavidGarfinkel - 03 Feb 2010 | | | What I wanted to explore is why do students choose to go to such jobs knowing full well the negative consequences. I find the idea of stating that we are being simply irrational baseless and some hypocritical. I do not believe that come August students suddenly become irrational, or that the choice itself is necessary irrational. I may be wrong, but what is needed is more concrete ideas of what the consequences are for pursuing such career paths. One common talking point we hear is that taking such jobs is temporary, so as to pay our loans and gain valuable experience so as to pursue our true goals. This begs the question of what actually happens, do some succeed in escaping or do we end up getting trapped. One problem I have is assuming that every lawyer truly cares about being able to choose his or her own clients and doing justice. In reality, I believe that working simply for monetary value and self pleasure (whatever form that takes) is as valid as working for justice and the public good. This is based on the proposition that value in the end is completely personal. Unless you believe in some moral or religious order, which includes a higher being and probably an afterlife, then it is irrelevant in terms of intrinsic value what one does. So what I want to learn is what are the reasons people pursue such careers, the thoughts that such students, including most of us have, when we are thinking about which firm to apply to and where we want to be 5 years from now.
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- To respond to you, Mike: I think you're right that we don't always know what we want. I think my point was more that sometimes there are certain best interests or values that we hold that can be overshadowed or obscured by external pressures. I might not, for example, know exactly what I want to do with my law degree, but I might know that I want to work for justice. So while we don't always know exactly what we want, there are certain things that are going to be in our best interest and might conflict with the choices we actually make because of other factors. And you're also right that perhaps I presented too negative a treatment of cultural influence in general (if I read your comment correctly)- I think it may be a bit naive of me to suggest there is some essential thing within us that can be wholly separated from cultural influence. Of course, cultural influence is inescapable and often shapes all of our behavior, from the very basic ways we operate to the more complex interactions we have and institutions we are a part of. But that said, I think there is a difference between the influence of culture and the imposition of cultural values on our own. It's when we start to believe that other values or interests are really our "own" and forget that they're imposed on us or captured from somewhere else that our best interest could be compromised. -- JessicaHallett - 04 Feb 2010
| | | CONFLICT original 18:
- "In reality, I believe that working simply for monetary value and self pleasure (whatever form that takes) is as valid as working for justice and the public good. This is based on the proposition that value in the end is completely personal....it is irrelevant in terms of intrinsic value what one does."
How far would you take that? What if while working for monetary value and personal pleasure, one ended up helping a client to do something really terrible? Such as using slave labor to harvest crops. Or maintaining an unsafe factory that eventually spills poison gas over thousands of people. Or just saddling people with mortgage debt they can never pay back and causing a recession and massive job losses. Companies do those things in real life and they have lawyers who help them. At some point, should one decide that the intrinsic value of what one does outweighs pay and pleasure? |
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PawningOurLicenses 23 - 04 Feb 2010 - Main.GloverWright
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| | A major theme of the class seems to include that many, if not most, Columbia students will go out and pawn their licenses. This idea seems to strongly correlate with the vast percentage of students who go to work for a corporate law firm, though is not the only way this pawning occurs. What I want to ask is why do so many students choose this career path when most are aware of the consequences, for themselves and society, that result from that decision. This is something I am currently wrestling with, and will not deny that I am looking towards a possible career at a large law firm if I could get one. The dilemma I am facing is why do I want such a career, knowing that most associates seem to be miserable at their jobs, the ratio of pay/hours worked, and the chance of promotion is minimal within the firm so that will never have any real control and end up getting trapped in a certain lifestyle that becomes hard to escape from. From my perspective, it is hard to pinpoint the source, because I can't really believe that Columbia actively pushes it more so than other careers, and people find ways of paying of their loans one way or another, just the length of time it takes will differ. What I seem to question myself lately is do such large corporate firms actually give monetary rewards and prestige that is worth it and can actually be utilized towards a true career path. That I don't know. What seems to force so many students hands is that we are forced to choose a career after one year of law school, having taken no substantive course work or ability to explore different fields. This is a strange contrast to college where many of us took at least 2 years to figure out what major, and even longer to figure out what we want to do afterward. So why do so many of us choose to work for a large law firm?
-- DavidGarfinkel - 03 Feb 2010 | | | I think that one of the benefits to Eben's provocative material is that we are ultimately the ones empowered to do something about it. The courts are imperfect. Situations are unique as to prevent legal rules from really being as uniform as our decision-making supposes. Law is politics. People with power want to keep it for themselves. We shun The Other. All of this can be morbid and handicapping, or we can revel in the benign indifference of the universe and assert ourselves with focus and determination. Perhaps this is along the lines of Eben's Thurgood Marshall is Not God notion, which is very attractive to me. In response to the class discussion on Tuesday, I think things have changed and it is possible for them to keep changing. I don't subscribe to the argument that gross inequality is justifiable because America is at least better than other shittier places, but I do believe in the fundamental notion that as a society, we have and will affect change with respect to the (maybe unreachable) goal of equality. The fact that we have a black president does not erase a history of purposeful and disgusting institutional terror, but it certainly informs that history. Blacks, hispanics, women, gay people, the disabled and others continue to be discriminated against. These problems (and many others) have multiple potential legal solutions and that should inspire us to act. For me, that inspiration is be buoyed by the expectation that there is some responsive nature to our national mores.
-- NonaFarahnik - 04 Feb 2010 | |
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> | First, here's an article from The Awl -- which, if you don't read regularly, you should -- by Chris Lehmann in response to a Newsweek story on the "Recession Generation," i.e., us. It touches on a few topics covered above and in class on Tuesday.
Second, I'm not sure that it's helpful to frame the decision between corporate/private and public interest work in terms of rationality, because already it's too easy to slip into rationalization. Thinking through what we've talked about in class, it's probably more useful to approach the decision via consilience. That said, I don't think we need to spend much time working through the thought process leading towards such jobs, because I assume that it's intuitively familiar to all of us regardless of what area of law we'd like to pursue. More interesting, I think, and more productive, are conversations about the ways that we might be able to actually do other things with our licenses.
Third, Nona: I'm not exactly sure what you mean by saying that there's some responsive nature to our national mores, but I don't think that I agree. If you mean that we're prone to responding to the struggles of various groups by changing our minds about them, it seems that we do so too grudgingly for much optimism. In many cases, rather, the mores tend to be the problem, and the law is often best used in opposition to them. The upside is that this leaves plenty of room for legal maneuvering.
-- Main.Glover Wright - 04 Feb 2010 |
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PawningOurLicenses 22 - 04 Feb 2010 - Main.MikeAbend
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| | A major theme of the class seems to include that many, if not most, Columbia students will go out and pawn their licenses. This idea seems to strongly correlate with the vast percentage of students who go to work for a corporate law firm, though is not the only way this pawning occurs. What I want to ask is why do so many students choose this career path when most are aware of the consequences, for themselves and society, that result from that decision. This is something I am currently wrestling with, and will not deny that I am looking towards a possible career at a large law firm if I could get one. The dilemma I am facing is why do I want such a career, knowing that most associates seem to be miserable at their jobs, the ratio of pay/hours worked, and the chance of promotion is minimal within the firm so that will never have any real control and end up getting trapped in a certain lifestyle that becomes hard to escape from. From my perspective, it is hard to pinpoint the source, because I can't really believe that Columbia actively pushes it more so than other careers, and people find ways of paying of their loans one way or another, just the length of time it takes will differ. What I seem to question myself lately is do such large corporate firms actually give monetary rewards and prestige that is worth it and can actually be utilized towards a true career path. That I don't know. What seems to force so many students hands is that we are forced to choose a career after one year of law school, having taken no substantive course work or ability to explore different fields. This is a strange contrast to college where many of us took at least 2 years to figure out what major, and even longer to figure out what we want to do afterward. So why do so many of us choose to work for a large law firm?
-- DavidGarfinkel - 03 Feb 2010 | | | having determined after fourteen weeks that what I am making a
priority isn't a priority around here. | |
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< | * I want to reinforce two points from my earlier post. First, every decision has a reason, and we make that decision because it is our best option. At the time we make it, even though from outside perspective it may seem crazy, each decision has been compared to EVERY OTHER KNOWN OPTION (think "mens rea"). The factors I listed were just a few which may weigh on the decision, but like Sam said, not knowing of a better option often leads us to make an inefficient choice. I also disagree with Jessica-- I don't think we always know what we want; We often face choices where we really don't know which one will have the better outcome, and whether knowingly or unknowingly we rely on societal values to help fill these holes of uncertainty. Our culture, whether we like it or not, is part of our personality and helps define the schemas through which we organize information. This information is then used to make the "rational decisions" we are talking about. While I looked only at the Nordic culture, there is also a ton of research on the eastern/western cultural value dichotomy. -- MikeAbend - 03 Feb 2010
* I want to reinforce two points from my earlier post. First, every decision has a reason, and we make that decision because it is our best option. At the time we make it, even though from outside perspective it may seem crazy, each decision has been compared to EVERY OTHER KNOWN OPTION (think "mens rea"). The factors I listed were just a few which may weigh on the decision, but like Sam said, not knowing of a better option often leads us to make an inefficient choice. I also disagree with Jessica-- I don't think we always know what we want, and whether consciously or unconsciously societal values to help fill these holes of uncertainty. Our culture, whether we like it or not, is part of our personality and helps define the schemas through which we organize information. This information is then used to make the "rational decisions" we are talking about. Our culture affects our behavior, which is essentially the manifestation of all of our decisions. Above I looked only at the Nordic culture, but there is also a ton of research on the eastern/western cultural value dichotomy. -- MikeAbend - 03 Feb 2010 | >
> | * I want to reinforce two points from my earlier post. First, every decision has a reason, and we make that decision because it is our best option. At the time we make it, even though from outside perspective it may seem crazy, each decision has been compared to EVERY OTHER KNOWN OPTION (think "mens rea"). The factors I listed were just a few which may weigh on the decision, but like Sam said, not knowing of a better option often leads us to make an inefficient choice. I also disagree with Jessica-- I don't think we always know what we want, and whether consciously or unconsciously societal values to help fill these holes of uncertainty. Our culture, whether we like it or not, is part of our personality and helps define the schemas through which we organize information. This information is then used to make the "rational decisions" we are talking about. Our culture affects our behavior, which is essentially the manifestation of all of our decisions. Above I looked only at the Nordic culture, but there is also a ton of research on the eastern/western cultural value dichotomy. -- MikeAbend - 03 Feb 2010 | | |
I think there are some key reasons as to why people may take a position they would not "rationally" want. I think that students need to be aware of these temptations in order to avoid them. |
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PawningOurLicenses 21 - 04 Feb 2010 - Main.AmandaBell
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| | A major theme of the class seems to include that many, if not most, Columbia students will go out and pawn their licenses. This idea seems to strongly correlate with the vast percentage of students who go to work for a corporate law firm, though is not the only way this pawning occurs. What I want to ask is why do so many students choose this career path when most are aware of the consequences, for themselves and society, that result from that decision. This is something I am currently wrestling with, and will not deny that I am looking towards a possible career at a large law firm if I could get one. The dilemma I am facing is why do I want such a career, knowing that most associates seem to be miserable at their jobs, the ratio of pay/hours worked, and the chance of promotion is minimal within the firm so that will never have any real control and end up getting trapped in a certain lifestyle that becomes hard to escape from. From my perspective, it is hard to pinpoint the source, because I can't really believe that Columbia actively pushes it more so than other careers, and people find ways of paying of their loans one way or another, just the length of time it takes will differ. What I seem to question myself lately is do such large corporate firms actually give monetary rewards and prestige that is worth it and can actually be utilized towards a true career path. That I don't know. What seems to force so many students hands is that we are forced to choose a career after one year of law school, having taken no substantive course work or ability to explore different fields. This is a strange contrast to college where many of us took at least 2 years to figure out what major, and even longer to figure out what we want to do afterward. So why do so many of us choose to work for a large law firm?
-- DavidGarfinkel - 03 Feb 2010 |
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PawningOurLicenses 20 - 04 Feb 2010 - Main.NonaFarahnik
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| | A major theme of the class seems to include that many, if not most, Columbia students will go out and pawn their licenses. This idea seems to strongly correlate with the vast percentage of students who go to work for a corporate law firm, though is not the only way this pawning occurs. What I want to ask is why do so many students choose this career path when most are aware of the consequences, for themselves and society, that result from that decision. This is something I am currently wrestling with, and will not deny that I am looking towards a possible career at a large law firm if I could get one. The dilemma I am facing is why do I want such a career, knowing that most associates seem to be miserable at their jobs, the ratio of pay/hours worked, and the chance of promotion is minimal within the firm so that will never have any real control and end up getting trapped in a certain lifestyle that becomes hard to escape from. From my perspective, it is hard to pinpoint the source, because I can't really believe that Columbia actively pushes it more so than other careers, and people find ways of paying of their loans one way or another, just the length of time it takes will differ. What I seem to question myself lately is do such large corporate firms actually give monetary rewards and prestige that is worth it and can actually be utilized towards a true career path. That I don't know. What seems to force so many students hands is that we are forced to choose a career after one year of law school, having taken no substantive course work or ability to explore different fields. This is a strange contrast to college where many of us took at least 2 years to figure out what major, and even longer to figure out what we want to do afterward. So why do so many of us choose to work for a large law firm?
-- DavidGarfinkel - 03 Feb 2010 | | | What I wanted to explore is why do students choose to go to such jobs knowing full well the negative consequences. I find the idea of stating that we are being simply irrational baseless and some hypocritical. I do not believe that come August students suddenly become irrational, or that the choice itself is necessary irrational. I may be wrong, but what is needed is more concrete ideas of what the consequences are for pursuing such career paths. One common talking point we hear is that taking such jobs is temporary, so as to pay our loans and gain valuable experience so as to pursue our true goals. This begs the question of what actually happens, do some succeed in escaping or do we end up getting trapped. One problem I have is assuming that every lawyer truly cares about being able to choose his or her own clients and doing justice. In reality, I believe that working simply for monetary value and self pleasure (whatever form that takes) is as valid as working for justice and the public good. This is based on the proposition that value in the end is completely personal. Unless you believe in some moral or religious order, which includes a higher being and probably an afterlife, then it is irrelevant in terms of intrinsic value what one does. So what I want to learn is what are the reasons people pursue such careers, the thoughts that such students, including most of us have, when we are thinking about which firm to apply to and where we want to be 5 years from now.
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> | CONFLICT original 18: | | |
- "In reality, I believe that working simply for monetary value and self pleasure (whatever form that takes) is as valid as working for justice and the public good. This is based on the proposition that value in the end is completely personal....it is irrelevant in terms of intrinsic value what one does."
How far would you take that? What if while working for monetary value and personal pleasure, one ended up helping a client to do something really terrible? Such as using slave labor to harvest crops. Or maintaining an unsafe factory that eventually spills poison gas over thousands of people. Or just saddling people with mortgage debt they can never pay back and causing a recession and massive job losses. Companies do those things in real life and they have lawyers who help them. At some point, should one decide that the intrinsic value of what one does outweighs pay and pleasure? | |
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< | I can't answer all of your question at the end because I've never thought about working for a firm. (Someone told me he's working for Sullivan Cromwell this summer, and I said, "Who's he?" I was imagining a congressman.) But I do know that five years from now I want to work for a union. -- AmandaBell - 04 Feb 2010
- Sometimes I wonder why we confine our discussion to the pawning of licenses and the firm job. Is there something about our decision to study law that distinguishes us from everyone else? I see my friends everywhere-- in fashion, marketing, banking, entertainment-- generally unhappy with what they do and the amount of hours they put into doing it. The problem of pawning skill for work and dissatisfaction is rampant. To a certain extent, it might reflect the status premium we place on different types of jobs that Mike referred to above--Lloyd Blankfein is not hanging out with his doorman. My sense is also that so many people are running--hard--on this corporate debt-laden hamster wheel, and nobody is stopping to think about the life part of it. Compounded with the gross inequalities that this system preserves, the situation is almost maddeningly upsetting.
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> | CONFLICT version 19:
- "In reality, I believe that working simply for monetary value and self pleasure (whatever form that takes) is as valid as working for justice and the public good. This is based on the proposition that value in the end is completely personal....it is irrelevant in terms of intrinsic value what one does."
How far would you take that? What if while working for monetary value and personal pleasure, one ended up helping a client to do something really terrible? Such as using slave labor to harvest crops. Or maintaining an unsafe factory that eventually spills poison gas over thousands of people. Or just saddling people with mortgage debt they can never pay back and causing a recession and massive job losses. Companies do those things in real life and they have lawyers who help them. At some point, should one decide that the intrinsic value of what one does outweighs pay and pleasure?
CONFLICT version new:
*Why do we confine our discussion to the pawning of law licenses and the firm job. Is there something about our decision to study law that distinguishes us from everyone else? I see my friends everywhere-- in fashion, marketing, banking, entertainment-- generally unhappy with what they do and the amount of hours they put into doing it. The problem of pawning skill for work and dissatisfaction is rampant. Awareness of this unhappy cycle, combined with the gross inequalities that this system preserves is maddening.
CONFLICT end | | | | |
<
< | I think that one of the benefits to Eben's provocative material is that ultimately, we are the ones who are empowered to do something about it. The courts are imperfect. Situations are unique as to prevent legal rules from really being as uniform as our decision-making supposes. Law is politics. People with power want to keep it for themselves. We shun The Other. All of this can be morbid and handicapping, or we can revel in the benign indifference of the universe and assert ourselves as we please. Perhaps this is along the lines of Eben's Thurgood Marshall is Not God notion, which is very attractive to me. In response to the class discussion on Tuesday, I think things have changed and it is possible for them to keep changing. I don't subscribe to the argument that gross inequality is justifiable because America is at least better than other shittier places, but I do believe in the fundamental notion that as a society, we have and will affect change with respect to the (maybe unreachable) goal of equality. The fact that we have a black president does not erase a history of purposeful and disgusting institutional terror, but it certainly informs that history. Blacks, hispanics, women, gay people, the disabled and others continue to be discriminated against. These problems (and many others) have multiple potential legal solutions and that should inspire us to act. For me, that inspiration is be buoyed by the expectation that there is some responsive nature to our national mores. | >
> | I think that one of the benefits to Eben's provocative material is that we are ultimately the ones empowered to do something about it. The courts are imperfect. Situations are unique as to prevent legal rules from really being as uniform as our decision-making supposes. Law is politics. People with power want to keep it for themselves. We shun The Other. All of this can be morbid and handicapping, or we can revel in the benign indifference of the universe and assert ourselves with focus and determination. Perhaps this is along the lines of Eben's Thurgood Marshall is Not God notion, which is very attractive to me. In response to the class discussion on Tuesday, I think things have changed and it is possible for them to keep changing. I don't subscribe to the argument that gross inequality is justifiable because America is at least better than other shittier places, but I do believe in the fundamental notion that as a society, we have and will affect change with respect to the (maybe unreachable) goal of equality. The fact that we have a black president does not erase a history of purposeful and disgusting institutional terror, but it certainly informs that history. Blacks, hispanics, women, gay people, the disabled and others continue to be discriminated against. These problems (and many others) have multiple potential legal solutions and that should inspire us to act. For me, that inspiration is be buoyed by the expectation that there is some responsive nature to our national mores. | | | -- NonaFarahnik - 04 Feb 2010 |
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