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StudentAction 15 - 11 Mar 2010 - Main.MatthewZorn
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| | Discussion page for improving law school. If interested, add your name, and add your ideas!
Interested People
| | | It’s hard for me to understand how someone who is here can say they don’t think it’s worth the money. If you really don’t think it’s worth the money then you would leave. My bet is that you could get a full-ride at a lower-tier law school starting tomorrow. I know there are many students who would be anxious to fill your spot because they believe a CLS education is worth a lot more than $50,000/year.
-JoshLerner | |
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StudentAction 14 - 11 Mar 2010 - Main.JoshLerner
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| | Discussion page for improving law school. If interested, add your name, and add your ideas!
Interested People
| | | All that said, I am also down for any positive change and agree with Moglen that the 3 bullet point strategy would be best.
-- JessicaCohen | |
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@Christopher - Nona has stolen some of my thunder, but I agree with her comment and still think my comment will add something.
If you think law school isn't worth $50,000/year then boy do I have a solution for you! Drop out! Maybe you're on scholarship or get financial aid, in which case you probably shouldn't be complaining that law school costs $50,000, because it doesn't for you. Law schools have many pricing mechanisms that charge different students different prices. Most students here at Columbia have the option of paying anywhere from $0 - $50,000/year for law school depending on which school they choose to attend. Many students bargain with the schools and weigh offers based on how they value the education (or reputation or whatever they like about a school).
It’s hard for me to understand how someone who is here can say they don’t think it’s worth the money. If you really don’t think it’s worth the money then you would leave. My bet is that you could get a full-ride at a lower-tier law school starting tomorrow. I know there are many students who would be anxious to fill your spot because they believe a CLS education is worth a lot more than $50,000/year.
-JoshLerner |
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StudentAction 13 - 11 Mar 2010 - Main.NonaFarahnik
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| | Discussion page for improving law school. If interested, add your name, and add your ideas!
Interested People
| | | Kalliope Kefallinos
Goal Suggestions
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< | Nona - move to a high pass/pass/fail grading basis
| | | Devin - assembling signatures for a petition to withdraw from US New and World Report rankings
Jessica - possibly haggling about tuition; wants to see a line-item asset/liability sheet for the Law School
Chris - (1) lower tuition significantly if at all possible, (2) move to a pass/fail grading system, (3) provide honest information about career prospects
| | | . Discuss with LCS classmates
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< | You have my signature. The only problem as I see it is you offer no clear goal. In my estimation, whatever plan would have to get something like 2/3 1L class-wide participation (and preceding that, consensus). I think the most tenable, realistic, and favored change could be making the first semester at CLS to be evaluated on a high pass/pass/fail basis, but I am always in for positive change. | >
> | You have my signature. The only problem as I see it is you offer no clear goal. In my estimation, whatever plan would have to get something like 2/3 1L class-wide participation (and preceding that, consensus). | | | Nona Farahnik | | | The main thing I would change is to switch from one end-of-term exam to a system with multiple assigns/ midterm/ final, whatever. I don't care if grades stay or change-- replacing letter grades with HP/P system is the same shit with a different name. I just want more feedback. I wouldn't prefer this, but I wouldn't mind if the intermediate feedback was by TAs, either. I also think asking for a tuition reduction is absurd. | |
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Don't know how to change font color:
I think this is the one thing the entire grade can rally around. At least one midterm assignment (graded or not as the professor please) per class. The minimum that this requires is for a professor to post something on courseweb and to spend one lunchtime going over it. It would really just take a grade-wide mild insurgency before the next faculty meeting.
Nona | | | -- KalliopeKefallinos - 10 March 2010
| | | -- ChristopherCrismanCox - 10 Mar 2010 | |
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> | @Chris: you can learn the same amount for a fraction of the cost. What state are you from? I think law school is worth 50k per year because we are paying it, and however much we want to analyze the functioning of our market-based society, there is a market for law school. If you also factor in the sheer amount of stuff going on at the law school in addition to the actual earning value of our license, there is intellectual value out of the whole deal as well. Maybe you will feel better by comparing this cost to the $6k price tag to go to TED for a long weekend. I feel like we get TED every day. Just today, I unexpectedly attended a vigorous panel of 5 education experts on a subject I previously knew nothing about. Anyhow, I don't agree with Eben's blanket contentions about the value of our future licenses. We can make this experience and our future abilities worth more or less depending on our own level of engagement.
Nona | | | I mean that it is absurd as a practical matter. I think we have to look at the psychology of the people we would be imploring and prioritize our goals based on how we think they would react. Asking for tuition would come off as immature dream-wishing, in turn destroying any credibility we might have. The admin can easily respond to a demand for lower tuition by explaining that it is "impossible" given the current surrounding economic reality. Financial aid and many other CU programs will have to be cut, they will say. You are only thinking short term, they will say. How will we pay the salary of Petal Modeste and others we just hired specifically to help you in this new "climate"? I could go on. I agree with you that we could learn the same if not more for a fraction of the cost, but that's not the point. I feel like I'm just applying what we've been learning thus far in class regarding prediction...
-- KalliopeKefallinos - 10 Mar 2010 |
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StudentAction 12 - 10 Mar 2010 - Main.JessicaCohen
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| | Discussion page for improving law school. If interested, add your name, and add your ideas!
Interested People
| | | I mean that it is absurd as a practical matter. I think we have to look at the psychology of the people we would be imploring and prioritize our goals based on how we think they would react. Asking for tuition would come off as immature dream-wishing, in turn destroying any credibility we might have. The admin can easily respond to a demand for lower tuition by explaining that it is "impossible" given the current surrounding economic reality. Financial aid and many other CU programs will have to be cut, they will say. You are only thinking short term, they will say. How will we pay the salary of Petal Modeste and others we just hired specifically to help you in this new "climate"? I could go on. I agree with you that we could learn the same if not more for a fraction of the cost, but that's not the point. I feel like I'm just applying what we've been learning thus far in class regarding prediction...
-- KalliopeKefallinos - 10 Mar 2010 | |
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> | Chris - You're right. I guess it wouldn't be the first thing I'd lobby for, though.
Kalliope - I meant forcing the adminsitration to be held accountable for our tuition. The "haggling" would take the form of the asset/liability sheet - i.e. we're investors in our education, and have a right to know why the money is spent how it is.
All that said, I am also down for any positive change and agree with Moglen that the 3 bullet point strategy would be best.
-- JessicaCohen |
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StudentAction 11 - 10 Mar 2010 - Main.DevinMcDougall
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< | Eben has suggested a few times that there be a mass student movement to stand up and change the law school. I am interested. In all seriousness, why not? | >
> | Discussion page for improving law school. If interested, add your name, and add your ideas! | | | | |
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< | Here is what I propose. Sign your name on this wiki entry in the list below if you would also be interested.
There are no set goals at this point. Just an initial evaluation of interest. There is a discussion below about what goals to pursue.
My own goals are the following, but you do not need to agree with any of them to sign: (1) lower tuition if possible (and I am nearly 100% sure it is possible), (2) move to some kind of pass/fail system, (3) be honest with the student body and especially admitted students and potential applicants that Columbia may not be an easy ticket to a $160,000 job anymore. Potential students especially need honest information in order to make a decision of whether or not to apply to Columbia; a good start would be to update the employment statistics on the website that still reflect the numbers from the class of 2008.
Current Names
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> | Interested People
| | | Nona Farahnik
Devin McDougall?
Jessica Cohen
| | | Kalliope Kefallinos
Goal Suggestions
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< | (of course edit if I have mischaracterized anything)
| | | Nona - move to a high pass/pass/fail grading basis
Devin - assembling signatures for a petition to withdraw from US New and World Report rankings
Jessica - possibly haggling about tuition; wants to see a line-item asset/liability sheet for the Law School
Chris - (1) lower tuition significantly if at all possible, (2) move to a pass/fail grading system, (3) provide honest information about career prospects
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< | Also: Below, Nona mentions that any movement will require class-wide 1L participation as well as 2L/3L participation. I agree; such participation would be required for the administration to take us seriously. I think this wiki is the best start, though. If we get significant support from this class, then we can move on to attempts to attract support from the rest of the class and from 2Ls and 3Ls. | >
> | Strategy Planning Suggestions
. Clarify and find consensus on goals and strategies
. Obtain classwide support, as well as other years
. Discuss on the wiki
. Discuss with LCS classmates
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< | -- ChristopherCrismanCox - 10 Mar 2010 | | | You have my signature. The only problem as I see it is you offer no clear goal. In my estimation, whatever plan would have to get something like 2/3 1L class-wide participation (and preceding that, consensus). I think the most tenable, realistic, and favored change could be making the first semester at CLS to be evaluated on a high pass/pass/fail basis, but I am always in for positive change. |
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