Law in Contemporary Society

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WinningTheLottery 11 - 08 Feb 2009 - Main.MichaelDreibelbis
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Today, in the midst of the broader discussion of the Arnold reading, Professor Moglen talked about “winning the lottery”. I’ve thought about this frequently – that the place where I am today, and indeed most of the places I’ve gone in my life, were predetermined by the time and place where I was born. Obviously there have been choices made along the way, but I’m not interested in addressing how frequently these choices were actually conscious decisions or to what extent a conscious decision can even be reached. Rather, I’d like to address the issues that arise for me when I presume that my privileged position in life is largely due to random chance.
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 But is that really possible in a classroom? Doesn't it have to be like a religious experience, where one has a revelation that gives him faith, because it can't be derived by logic? In the real world, people rarely change their minds by being argued with. They do it because their gut decides for them. That would be your visit to Poland. So how can we be for "justice" if we haven't had the same type of epiphany?

-- GavinSnyder - 07 Feb 2009

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  • For what it's worth, I thought this little anecdote might help us think about epiphanies:

    I finally met Mirzad on Thursday, after seeing him every day for months. As I came back to my apartment, the next-door building's Super was out on the street taking out the garbage, as usual. We exchanged our usual nods and hellos, but this time I stopped and asked his name on a whim--Mirzad. He proceeded to tell me about how he had been a lawyer in Bosnia before being forced to take refuge in Germany, and now the United States, during the Bosnian civil war in the 90's. He was separated from his family for years, and will never go back to his country. We went on to have an intelligent, frank conversation about the relative merits of the US, and then said goodbye. I went in to my apartment to attend to my $150,000 education, while he continued to take out my trash.

-- MichaelDreibelbis - 08 Feb 2009

 
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WinningTheLottery 10 - 07 Feb 2009 - Main.GavinSnyder
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Today, in the midst of the broader discussion of the Arnold reading, Professor Moglen talked about “winning the lottery”. I’ve thought about this frequently – that the place where I am today, and indeed most of the places I’ve gone in my life, were predetermined by the time and place where I was born. Obviously there have been choices made along the way, but I’m not interested in addressing how frequently these choices were actually conscious decisions or to what extent a conscious decision can even be reached. Rather, I’d like to address the issues that arise for me when I presume that my privileged position in life is largely due to random chance.
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 The nature-nurture distinction that Anja brings up is also, I believe, very relevant. Its worth noting that there is something of a correlation between the life experiences and the career goals of students here. Individuals who grew up in a certain environment want to replicate that level of prosperity for themselves. A natural tendency, and something that I can recognize in my own thought processes, but is it something we should resist or accept?

-- WalkerNewell - 07 Feb 2009

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Anja,

Interesting question! I think people come to law school for many different reasons.

Some possibilities:

  • Greedy
  • Like to argue
  • Interested in the law
  • Like writing
  • Power-hungry
  • Want to help people
  • Want to change society
  • Nothing better to do/seemed like a good idea at the time
  • Parents shamed them into it
  • Want prestige/respectability
  • Like charcoal and navy, hate pastels
Some of these reasons seem more legitimate than others. Intuitively, "justice" is "better" than "greed" (is it really?). Moglen wants to redirect people to "justice."

But is that really possible in a classroom? Doesn't it have to be like a religious experience, where one has a revelation that gives him faith, because it can't be derived by logic? In the real world, people rarely change their minds by being argued with. They do it because their gut decides for them. That would be your visit to Poland. So how can we be for "justice" if we haven't had the same type of epiphany?

-- GavinSnyder - 07 Feb 2009

 
 
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WinningTheLottery 9 - 07 Feb 2009 - Main.WalkerNewell
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Today, in the midst of the broader discussion of the Arnold reading, Professor Moglen talked about “winning the lottery”. I’ve thought about this frequently – that the place where I am today, and indeed most of the places I’ve gone in my life, were predetermined by the time and place where I was born. Obviously there have been choices made along the way, but I’m not interested in addressing how frequently these choices were actually conscious decisions or to what extent a conscious decision can even be reached. Rather, I’d like to address the issues that arise for me when I presume that my privileged position in life is largely due to random chance.
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 -- LaurenRosenberg - 06 Feb 2009
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I think Melissa's point is a very reasonable counter to my post discussing being uneasy about working for a firm. To say that prosperity and comfort are morally reprehensible would be a difficult, and for me, hypocritical, statement to make. I also recognize that you can use the resources that career provides to attempt to make change. It does, however, seem difficult to reconcile a need to address injustices with a lifestyle which devotes 90% of waking hours to making money.

The nature-nurture distinction that Anja brings up is also, I believe, very relevant. Its worth noting that there is something of a correlation between the life experiences and the career goals of students here. Individuals who grew up in a certain environment want to replicate that level of prosperity for themselves. A natural tendency, and something that I can recognize in my own thought processes, but is it something we should resist or accept?

-- WalkerNewell - 07 Feb 2009

 
 
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WinningTheLottery 8 - 06 Feb 2009 - Main.LaurenRosenberg
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Today, in the midst of the broader discussion of the Arnold reading, Professor Moglen talked about “winning the lottery”. I’ve thought about this frequently – that the place where I am today, and indeed most of the places I’ve gone in my life, were predetermined by the time and place where I was born. Obviously there have been choices made along the way, but I’m not interested in addressing how frequently these choices were actually conscious decisions or to what extent a conscious decision can even be reached. Rather, I’d like to address the issues that arise for me when I presume that my privileged position in life is largely due to random chance.
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 Personally, I remember the very first moment I felt it: It was in 1991, after the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe, when I first went to visit my father in Poland. I looked around at what I then thought was poverty and instantly realized the randomness of my own privilege, having grown up in Sweden, a two-hour flight away. Since then, I have felt an obligation to give at least as much as I take from "the world." But does this mean that absent that early exposure I would not react the way I do today in the face of injustice?

-- AnjaHavedal? - 06 Feb 2009

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I agree with much of what has been said regarding the lottery of birth. John Rawls has a very insightful essay on this topic in A Theory of Justice. Rawls writes, “[It] is neither just nor unjust…that persons are born into society in some particular position. These are simply natural facts. Justice stems from the way that institutions deal with these facts.” Yet, I believe that it is not only a matter for institutions; it is also a matter for individuals. So if you accept that we are the privileged lottery winners, what does this mean for our actions and our careers?

First, I believe one should take as much benefit as possible from the privileges given, specifically your education. If we think about how many people are not given the privilege of any formal education, let alone graduate school, it will make us realize that we should get the most out of each day in class and out of our careers.

Second, I believe one should try to better the inequalities that are present in our society. I don’t think that means that everyone should necessarily work at a non-profit organization, but I do think that means one should make sure that work has a socially beneficial effect. There are lots of ways that our careers can be socially beneficial and if we work with Professor Moglen and each other, we can start to discuss how to achieve this.

Lastly, I wanted to address a lot of what has been said regarding the difficulty in thinking about this arbitrariness of position. It seems to me that it goes back to fear. It is very uncomfortable to think about how millions of people in developing nations without clean drinking water are no different than us. These fears tend to shut down our brains to avoid thinking about the situation. But when we don’t think about it, we can’t do anything about it. So if we can learn to accept the arbitrariness of birth and the fear that maybe we don’t “deserve” the privileges we have been given, then we can start to use these privileges to benefit society.

-- LaurenRosenberg - 06 Feb 2009

 
 
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WinningTheLottery 7 - 06 Feb 2009 - Main.AnjaHavedal
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  Today, in the midst of the broader discussion of the Arnold reading, Professor Moglen talked about “winning the lottery”. I’ve thought about this frequently – that the place where I am today, and indeed most of the places I’ve gone in my life, were predetermined by the time and place where I was born. Obviously there have been choices made along the way, but I’m not interested in addressing how frequently these choices were actually conscious decisions or to what extent a conscious decision can even be reached. Rather, I’d like to address the issues that arise for me when I presume that my privileged position in life is largely due to random chance.

The main difficulty, when I think about the circumstances that brought me to law school, is that I have trouble feeling that I’ve really earned my achievements. Granted, I succeeded at test-taking in college and then learned how to take a four-hour exam, but in doing so, I’ve felt like one of the multitude of ants following my prescribed role in building the anthill. With this sentiment, and with my experiences in other countries not as fortunate as our own, I find it exceedingly difficult to justify spending my life at a firm. My concept of justice may be subjective or insignificant, but that concept nonetheless makes me reluctant to see such a life stretching ahead of me.

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  Realizing that we owe our position in the world to a lot of luck (without forgetting that we’re also here because of our hard work) means that we ought to make less selfish choices – but that recognition, to me, doesn’t mean that choosing to work at a law firm would be selfish, or that choosing to work for a worthy social good would be selfless. I think it’s all about the net positive change in the world our choices will enable us to make.
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 -- MelissaMitgang - 06 Feb 2009
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 I think the topic may be confused as to which is my point vs. Michael's... My point isn't so much that I didn't work hard enough to get to this point. My main question is, given the random advantages that many of us have enjoyed, whether others feel an obligation to do something other than merely forge a comfortable life for themselves.

-- WalkerNewell - 06 Feb 2009

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“…given the random advantages that many of us have enjoyed, whether others feel an obligation to do something other than merely forge a comfortable life for themselves.”

As I alluded to in my post ExplainingWhatISaidInClassToday, I certainly do feel the kind of obligation Walker inquires about here. I hesitate, however, to use the word “obligation” because – much like “duty” – it connotes some level of altruism. I do not believe in altruism: My sense of obligation stems from the discomfort I know that I would feel if my work had no greater purpose than financial gain. In this way, the sense of “obligation” is grounded more in selfishness than in selflessness.

The way I think about our privilege is similar to the court’s reasoning in Evans v. Merriweather, a water-rights case we read in Property this week (wait, bear with me!). In essence, the court said that a riparian landowner may withdraw enough water from a stream on his land to satisfy his “natural” needs (drinking, farming), but not his “artificial needs” (consuming the entire flow of the stream for his mill). In short, Evans's right was one of “reasonable use.” Similarly, I may use my happenstance privilege to live a reasonably comfortable life, but to use it entirely for my own benefit in complete disregard of the rest of the world would be satisfying an artificial need. It would amount to greed.

In my mind, this is such a basic conception of justice that I have difficulties understanding how it is not clear to everybody in the room. I thought that most people come to law school because they want to explore and exploit a theretofore inexplicable sense of “right/wrong, fair/unfair, justice/injustice” lodged in their guts. Assuming, arguendo, that I am foolishly naïve on this matter (it would certainly not be the first time), and some people study law for reasons other than to serve their gut sense of justice, it would be interesting to explore the factors that lead some people to feel a sense of obligation and others not. A nature-nurture type exploration: To what extent does exposure to inequality matter? Parental or community values? Religion or lack thereof? The inexplicable phenomenon that constitutes our souls?

Personally, I remember the very first moment I felt it: It was in 1991, after the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe, when I first went to visit my father in Poland. I looked around at what I then thought was poverty and instantly realized the randomness of my own privilege, having grown up in Sweden, a two-hour flight away. Since then, I have felt an obligation to give at least as much as I take from "the world." But does this mean that absent that early exposure I would not react the way I do today in the face of injustice?

-- AnjaHavedal? - 06 Feb 2009

 
 
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Revision 11r11 - 08 Feb 2009 - 05:36:16 - MichaelDreibelbis
Revision 10r10 - 07 Feb 2009 - 07:07:36 - GavinSnyder
Revision 9r9 - 07 Feb 2009 - 03:24:31 - WalkerNewell
Revision 8r8 - 06 Feb 2009 - 20:52:52 - LaurenRosenberg
Revision 7r7 - 06 Feb 2009 - 17:19:35 - AnjaHavedal?
Revision 6r6 - 06 Feb 2009 - 06:41:01 - MelissaMitgang
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