When Eben talks about the fear and anxiety created by law school, grades, and dwindling firm jobs, does this resonate with you? How about fear that you won't find something that you are passionate about, that fulfills you, and that allows you to support yourself and your family?

I wished that Eben had spoken more to that fear and anxiety today in class, and more specifically, what to do about it.

Fair point. Let's take some time on this Thursday. There was too much to do today, even without opening the conversation on Jerome Frank, and I too was dissatisfied with the allocation of time.

I have never found an educational experience to be so stressful before. As an undergraduate, I felt that my education was an incredible luxury. To sit in the library and read work that inspired me and then to get to discuss it and write about it was a liberating experience - I understood for the first time what it was to have a life of the mind. I think my legal education is also an incredible luxury, but I haven't felt the same sense of freedom of inquiry. There are right ways and wrong ways to approach a legal problem, it seems, and they don't have much to do with artistry.

Maybe. Or maybe—inasmuch as the experience of the first semester was really just language acquisition, as I've mentioned—it's just that there are right and wrong ways to speak the language. In fact, as I keep trying to get people to consider, the actual legacy of our recent intellectual history as American lawyers is that there are no right or wrong answers, just political outcomes. In which event, if you take seriously what our realist interlocutors came up with, the stress you have is not about learning the one right way at all, but rather learning how to be just as creative in your thinking as a law student and lawyer as you were as a literary critic. Such creativity may be a little more difficult than slinging around cultural theory jargon, but it does more work in the world, too.

Maybe I've still got too much of the English major, too little of the lawyer. And don't get me wrong - I have enjoyed my classes so far and am excited to have a law degree.

I've also never thought much about grades before law school, and now you can't walk through the lockers without hearing something about them, can't apply for jobs without talking about them, and can't sit in class without watching the person in front of you compulsively check their grades on Lawnet every five minutes. That has been a strange phenomenon.

Yes. It's literally insane. Induced paranoia. As I started to say in class today but never got a chance to finish, I had no grades in my first semester of law school, in fall 1980. In the second term, spring 1981, I took four courses, including two law school legal history courses that were crucially important to what I understood to be my future because I was also beginning the PhD program in history next term; Criminal Law; and Political and Civil Rights. My Crimes teacher had literally torn up my work in my face the first term, so I deliberately enrolled in his Crimes course. The work was important to me in every way, and so—I suppose you could say—were the grades. I took the exams in May 1981 at the end of the term, and went about my business, working at IBM and going to school. The first time I checked my grades (which at Yale back then required going into the registrar's office to look physically at a transcript card) was the following Christmas.

The belief that anything requires you to pay frequent or apprehensive attention to your grades is utterly false. But the illusion is very strong. It requires more presence of mind than most of your colleagues have to press against the point apparently held to their chests and discover that it's nothing but empty air. (Hence the symbolic importance of such a moment in the ritual of induction into Freemasonry: men are prevented from attaining freedom by their substanceless fears and the deliberate illusions created to hold them captive.) Whether it is good for society to have its leading law schools training people who are too timid to be contemptuous of grades I leave for further discussion.

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this kind of discussion, but I'd really like to know what you guys think about this process.

Your questions are good ones. I too hope they will be throughly discussed.

-- CarolineFerrisWhite - 03 Feb 2010

Part 1: Like most people here, I'm taking out an enormous amount of money to be in law school. I may be naive, but the thing I am most anxious about is finding a job that is going to satisfy me, not paying off that debt. I am certain that the debt will be paid off somehow, either by myself or by Columbia's LRAP, but finding a job that is satisfying is something I think about every day. I don't want the story of my life to be (in Eben's words) helping Company X acquire Company Y, but studying here is making me feel inexorably drawn to that work. When I came to law school, I told myself that I would not allow myself to get sucked into the firm culture, and I really hope to remain true to that (although I could see working at a firm for a few years to pay off some of the debt).

Part 2: During the first semester, I felt like an empty cup sitting underneath a faucet that was turned on full blast. Unfortunately, the faucet never stopped streaming water into the cup, so once it was full within the first few weeks, it was hard to find room to retain anything else. As stressful as the end of the semester was, I really enjoyed it because I felt like I was able to finally turn off the faucet and absorb all the concepts that had been thrown at me. I didn't start understanding law talk until late in the semester, but it was very rewarding once I did.

Above all, what I find have found most interesting about law school is the close connection it has with the real world. Every case we read is a story about something that actually happened, and actually affected peoples' lives, which is so different from what I experienced in college. Perhaps the cases we read now aren't as interesting as some of the literature we read in college, but the thought that what we are learning may actually allow us to do something powerful is inspiring in its own right.

Part 3: In some ways, I actually don't mind the grades too much because I find them to be a good source of motivation. I know that the motivation should come from wanting to master the concepts so we can apply them when we graduate, but that extra little push is helpful sometimes. I know a 1L at Yale right now, and she barely studied at all for her finals. Obviously everyone here is very motivated, but can we honestly say that we would all work as hard all the time if we weren't graded? At the same time, I am really unhappy about the harmful effects of grades. The goal of this law school should be for all of its graduates to have the greatest chance possible of success when they leave, and I really don't think that objective is furthered by grading us - especially in our first semester.

-- NathanStopper

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@Caroline My fear is concentrated in the large amount of loans I am and will be taking out to attend law school. Eben pointed out today how bizarre on some level it is to be going into debt for groceries and basic living expenses (well maybe not so bizarre considering that 1/5 Americans could not afford food at some point last year: article).

The high price of upper-level education really does scare me. It's unfortunate that while accessibility of government loans is what allows many people to attend school, it is also what drives tuition prices up and up. I don't know the solution to escalating law school tuition and diminishing returns, but as long as there still are willing participants, I guess nothing will change.

I do feel that the fear regarding grades and job placements might not be such a terrible thing. Fear, as long as it's not overwhelming, may compel us to question, work harder, seek more meaningful relationships, and generally take full advantage of the privileges we've been offered. Kierkegaard said: "Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom." I view angst as being somewhat tied up in the current human condition, not just a 1L phenomenon.

@Nathan I completely agree with you on how exciting it has been to be studying legal concepts that have such relevant and immediate application in the real world.

-- EricaSelig - 03 Feb 2010

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For what it's worth, there's a seductiveness to the law firm. I was walking around Midtown today, and I began to notice a secret world. I've lived in New York for the past four years, and I've been to Times Square countless times. Today, for the first time, I noticed that Skadden Arps is located in the Conde Nast building.

Partially, this is because I had never heard of any of the "v100" law firms before law school, and by the same token, many law firms have silly names. To the uninitiated, if a company were important, it wouldn't have a name that ends in Flom. I have no doubt that I've passed innumerable halls of white-shoed greatness over the years, oblivious to everything but the occasional unfortunate appellation.

Now, I know better. Today, it was astounding to think that the simple fact of being a law student at Columbia could be parlayed into a job here.

The implication: work at Skadden, have a sexy life.

And so, I discovered a game. As I walked around Midtown, I shot a glance into any lobby or skyscraper that caught my eye. If there was a law firm in the building, the secret world of Biglaw earned a point. Without fail, any building that looked even remotely cool had a law firm with top billing near the front desk.

In short, law firms are selling instant success. Work for us, make six figures, get an office in Times Square/Fifth Ave./Mt. Olympus, and enjoy life. Couple that with the anxiety that most law students feel, especially regarding their lack of experience and qualifications, and it almost seems like a 2L would be crazy not to snap up a job offer-- lest the firm realize their mistake and hire somebody with actual qualifications. I felt the tug today, and I was just looking at buildings.

Gratuitous Example: Covington and Burling

-- RonMazor 03 Feb 2010

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@Ron: I know what you are saying. I found myself in Midtown during workday lunch hour this fall and I've never seen anything like it. Thousands of people in suits running around, talking business on cellphones, attending lunch meetings, etc, etc.

A graduate recently told me that Columbia switched from an Excellent/Very Good/Good grading system to a letter system sometime in the 90's, in response to concerns that students weren't as competitive with out of town firms. With Harvard and Stanford joining Yale in abandoning the letter system, will Columbia follow suit? I know the arguments for doing away with letter grades, but I'm a cynic, and would think that the above schools only modified their grading system once they felt confident that employers needed nothing other than the brand name to judge a candidate. Grades serve as a way to shift the burden of ranking and evaluating job candidates from firms to law professors teaching 1L classes, and the letter system with plus/minus designations provides firms with even finer distinctions between students. The question is whether Columbia graduates are in high enough demand that they don't need the extra data.

It's also interesting to note that Harvard and Stanford retain a High Pass designation (Yale has Honors I think)- maybe because they recognize there are legal jobs that still require a line to be drawn between the best and brightest and the bestest and brightest?

I actually found the atmosphere here to be what I'd expected, just by envisioning what a class of 300+ hypercompetitive, highly intelligent people would act like when placed together. Unfortunately, I do not think switching to a High Pass/Pass/Low Pass/Fail system would ameliorate the anxiety. As long as you are ranking people, and their rank in the system depends on the outcome of one four hour exam, there will be high levels of stress. Even though the school has tried to soften the blow somewhat (by not publishing class rank or GPA values) people still obsessively check grades or figure out ways to calculate their rank relative to the class. I think eliminating the 1L grading system entirely is the only way to measurably reduce anxiety, and it's my hope this wiki can help us figure out a way to do that while still promoting the skills we as first year law students need to learn.

-- JonathanWaisnor - 03 Feb 2010

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I think that the strict curve adds to the stress too, at least in part because it provides an alienation from the resulting mark. It would be one thing if my grade was the direct result of the work that I put in to learning the concepts that I'm tested on. It's quite another if it's a product of the work I did as measured against the work that other people did all filtered through an inherently (and necessarily) subjective grading process. Alienation effects aside I think that this method of ranking students fosters a highly competitive environment, and I don't think that's a necessary prerequisite of a highly intellectually stimulating experience. I can challenge my mind well enough without a Thunderdome-style law school throwdown.

-- AndrewCascini - 03 Feb 2010

In response to Caroline's first question: sometimes I wonder if I'm deeply in denial when I can't make myself afraid. As a first year I know that's not good - the lack of fear first semester probably caused me to learn the law not as well as a lot of my classmates who did realize that law school regarding a whole different level of learning and commitment compared to uncurved undergraduate classes. I also miss being an English Lit. major and taking seminars on Imaginative Literature and 19th century novels (Austen, Dickens, Brontes) that encouraged us to write papers on whatever we wanted to write about.

I believe everything will turn out fine, and I (we) will find a job(s)/career(s) both meaningful and interesting. Well, there is fear - fear of not knowing what I would find wonderful and interesting and meaningful in the long run, but mitigated by the fact that really any subject or practice of law can interesting. At least that's what the career counselor said back in November, telling a story about her securities or tax attorney friend and I liked to believe that. Please understand that I only graduated from college in May 2009; I've only taken internships that interested me and never suffered unemployment, financial distress, or the boredom and anxiety associated in popular media (such as Office Space or The Office) with full-time work. This is probably a symptom of the entitlement attitude Mohit brought up in class: belief in our intelligence, in our potential, in the impossibility of us being unhappy (in the long term) and failing (as in, not being able to feed myself after graduation). I don't know what to do about that. Perhaps law school should require of all applicants a year of real work experience.

Like Erica, I am also frustrated that universities private and public can raise tuitions so much because the demand is so high. Like a hypothetical person in one of those economic problems, I did not want to be that person who chose to find a lesser-ranked law school to attend for free when so most people were choosing the best school that accepted them. If the United State government funded all the top universities (converting private to public and maintaining the top public ones) such that all admitted students could attend for free, and thus due to limited funding had to eliminate half the universities the government does fully-fund, we would benefit, but not the students testing below the 80th percentile. The more options available provide more opportunities for social mobility right?

Some homeowners have been walking away from their mortgages. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/business/03walk.html?hp One homeowner's question: “I took a loan on an asset that I didn’t see was overvalued,” he said. “As much as I would like my bank to pay for that mistake, why should it?” When I saw the headline I had the thought, “Good for them!” but not after reading the article. I know Eben spent an entire class explaining 1) banks are not being unduly punished when homeowners walk away and 2) if even they are paying for the mistakes of the assetless, they should. I am disappointed that the 80% of hopelessly in debt homeowners who persist in paying their mortgages are likely the ones who honestly thought they could pay for their homes.

-- CeciliaWang - 03 Feb 2010

It would be an interesting question to survey Northwestern students, the majority of which (think was 90% or so) have at least one, most at least 2 years, of work experience. However, I do not think the answers do not differ till you are asking people who actually had a career. This may explain some of the different attitudes you see among members of the Older and Wiser Law Students (OWLS) than among the younger set. Part of this probably stems from the fact that those who took time off don't really have significant real world experience since such work is colored by the expectation that we will be going into graduate school shortly. I think a lot of the fear is not getting a job, but not getting the "right" job, which we are frankly not sure what the right answer is. What doubles the fear is the feeling that our whole future depends on one year of work, half of which is based on the very beginnings of law school when we haven't had time to learn the language.

-- DavidGarfinkel - 03 Feb 2010

I also wonder whether the fear and anxiety for some people is related to stepping beyond the standard amount of schooling into territory where you no longer can do what everyone else does, or what you're supposed to do. I remember (and I've seen this in many of my friends in their first one-two years out of college) feeling lots of anxiety the first 12 months out of college ... what am I going to do with my life? how do I do that? how can I find something to do that both helps others and meets my interests? Fretting over those questions for about six months (and I was fortunate enough to spend those six months in a remote mountain village without modern communication or pressures, but with beautiful wilderness scenery) helped me get used to wondering about those questions. Now, even though I wonder about those things a lot, the wondering causes me little anxiety. (note: this first 12-months out anxiety was quite noticeable in Teach For America too--people straight from college often had more difficulty adjusting to new sets of values in their schools/communities--but it's not nearly as poignant as in law school, probably because in TFA you know EXACTLY what you want in your work, and at least have a good idea of how to get it)

I suppose coupling the post-college anxiety with the high stakes of law school makes for a particularly anxiety-ridden experience.

But I do think time working before law school lessens the anxiety, or it certainly has for me. (I did TFA, teaching in a middle school in Starr County, Texas on the border before this). The first reasons that come to mind ...

**Responsibility shift--here I'm responsible only for myself and my future. At work, I was responsible for the safety and education of hundreds of kids each day

**Real-life consequences--if I don't get my work done here, little happens and I can make it up later. If I didn't get my work done as a teacher, I could mismanage a class and allow a child to make a mistake that would send them to the alternative center, or waste precious class time that my kids (3-4 years below grade level) needed.

**I feel so lucky to be here--for many reasons: I get to spend my day reading/thinking about interesting ideas and questions, I don't have to wake up early every day and spend the first hour wishing I were back in bed, I don't have to work 18 hours a day, and I have access to incredible minds, fantastic career opportunities (with promise of a life of reasonable comfort) and an amazing city that my students in Rio Grande City couldn't have dreamed of.

I'm not sure where this leaves us ... none of this probably lessens anyone else here's anxiety

-- MarenHulden 03 Feb 2010

Maren, you make a compelling case for maintaining perspective on this whole experience. I have taken a lot of time "off" (if you consider working full time "off"), both during my undergraduate years and before coming to law school, and expected that the experience I gained would hold me in good stead once in law school. It has, for the most part, but I am struck by how law school has revealed the chinks in my armor.

It's hard to keep perspective in the dizzying spectacle of Times Square, but Ron, have you ever known anyone personally who worked in one of those firms? It seems sexy from the sidewalk, looking up, but the view from the inside is something else entirely. When you're working all the time - and I mean all the time, 7 days a week, 12 or more hours a day - you don't have much time to flash your fancy self about the town. I agree with your formulation of the success big firms are selling, except for the part about "enjoy life."

It helps me to think about law school as a trade school, and I agree with the sentiments many have expressed about the real world application of what we're studying. It's exciting. It's exciting to contemplate being a lawyer, and I suppose that no matter how fearful or anxious we feel at times, lawyers we shall be.

I should probably edit this post and digest the comments and such, but I'm not quite sure how to go about that, so I'm holding off for now.

-- CarolineFerrisWhite - 04 Feb 2010

Very interesting discussion. There a few points I have some thoughts about.

+ Anxiety: What kind?

I think it's important to distinguish between different types. As Erica points out, there is a kind of anxiety that is inherent to the human experience. There is also the kind of anxiety that comes with dedication to doing an important job well. But there's another kind of excessive, unhealthy anxiety, and I think that's the kind that law school often induces.

Hans Selye, a McGill? psychologist (my alma mater! also - go Canada!), who did research on stress, distinguished between eustress, which is a type of stress conducive to grow, and distress, which is destructive.

I think that the traditional law school experience tends to go overboard into distress, beyond the normal quota associated with human life or striving for excellence.

+ Grades and Education Reform

I think part of the cause of this surplus anxiety is the requirement for curved grading based on a single high-stakes exam (tangentially I happened to have two closed book exams first semester - even worse in my opinion). Not only does this grading system not measure much of anything, I think it creates distortions in the substance of what we learn and how we learn it.

That's why I think the proper framing of the issue is not grade reform, but education reform. Evaluation systems can't be cabined off from the rest of an education system, because the evaluation system affects the other parts of the system. It's not just grades that are stake - it's really about education more broadly.

Taking a cue from Felix Cohen, we can consider that a thing is what it does. What the current system does is turn out large numbers of graduates who tend to work for large firms. The grading system as it is apparently serves that purpose well enough. As mentioned above, it helps firms sift through large numbers of applicants with minimal effort. Incidentally, curved grading based on a single exam also making teaching a lot less demanding for those professors so inclined.

But is this really the best way to educate lawyers? As Eben points out on his page about grades, lawyers used to be trained through apprenticeships, which offered mentoring and individual feedback. University-based legal education was supposed to produce a better outcome.

One thing that I have found frustrating is that it is difficult to find an entry-level job in public interest environmental law, my area of interest, without several years of experience. I wonder why, after three years of legal education, graduates are still considered unprepared for entry-level attorney positions. Part of this may be a matter of the job market - perhaps it is not that a new graduate would not be capable, but rather that competition for positions of this sort is such that groups can raise their hiring standards.

However, I can't help but wonder if a differently structured law school experience might produce graduates able to practice law at higher levels of effectiveness. Less “transcendental nonsense,” more individualized feedback from faculty and more emphasis on faculty teaching skills, not just research, might be a way to get more value out of the three years.

Education reform is a fight we all have a dog in, and I am very interested in thoughts about how we get there. In particular, I would be interested to know more about how and why Yale Law made their changes. Tangentially, I think moving to a High Pass – Pass – Low Pass – Fail system is just a cosmetic change. I mean, the traditional system is already predicated on sorting large numbers of students into four categories, so this is really just relabeling boxes. I don’t think that constitutes genuine reform. It might also be interesting to make a wiki page for the history of education reform efforts at CLS. Eben has mentioned some stuff about in class, and some info is also mentioned in a post above.

-- DevinMcDougall - 04 Feb 2010

Ok, so I just made the page: CLSEducationReform

-- DevinMcDougall - 04 Feb 2010