The big draw for many law students at schools like Columbia is the "big law" salary.

I feel like my happiness and fulfillment exists within the "big law" ecosystem.

That is, if I were to not make a sizable income, something would be wrong.

Does anyone else share these fears? Do you feel that the fears are limiting in a detrimental way?

-- NnamdiNwaezeapu - 20 Jan 2021

I agree with the fear that something is "wrong" if you're not making a sizable income. One source of pressure for me is the expectation of others, namely family and other loved ones. I feel like everyone is expecting me to make a ton of money, to put it bluntly, to either support family or just in general as a measure of my "success" as a lawyer (especially considering my impending hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans). I'm still trying to parse through how I think about these "money concerns" (to your question--are they detrimental, and if so, how?) and if perhaps the source of pressure is not only external but also almost subconsciously internal. I think one argument could be that a focus on money can be so deeply engrained that it's almost difficult to figure out if the pressures are more so external or internal. So I don't have an answer, but I think I share your fears if I'm understanding your inquiries "correctly."

-- DeborahSparks - 21 Jan 2021

I share these fears. I think, at least for me, this gets more complicated whenever I think of money not as something that will buy material things, but rather a good education, access to healthcare, and many other intangible things that have a price tag when they shouldn't. I, too, wonder whether my happiness ultimately depends on an ecosystem where money is the number one priority.

-- ValeriaFlores - 22 Jan 2021

I definitely agree with all that has been said. The financial insecurity that exists within this country has only been exacerbated by the global pandemic.

I think one nuance that I'd like to add to this thread is a question or request for advice on exactly how to juggle a fulfilling career while also being paid sizeably. Does the participation in the biglaw sphere inherently mean that a career is unfulfilling? If that is not the case, why is that the stereotype regarding the career?

On this point, how can one receive a position outside of biglaw while still being able to live comfortably amidst financial insecurity, student debt, familial obligations, etc.

-- MaryamAsenuga - 26 Jan 2021

I agree, Deborah, with feeling pressure from family members and other loved ones. For me, I think this stems from a sense of guilt that my parents sacrificed so much for me to be where I am today, I can't help but feel that if I don't measure up to their very specific expectations that I am in a sense taking for granted all that they have done for me. I know this is a silly way of looking at it, and that it is ultimately up to me what to do with my life to find my own happiness, but it is hard to separate the two in my own head. I would love to one day provide for them everything that I can, as they have provided for me my entire life. That is where I struggle.

-- ElizabethBartzokis - 27 Jan 2021

I can relate to the prior sentiments about pressure from family. As a child of immigrants, I feel like it's engrained, or perhaps even self-imposed, that I make the most of my parents' sacrifices. However, call me naive, but I was hoping to use the name and prestige of CLS to help create a fulfilling path of my own. Yes, I will probably work at a firm for a few years to help pay off some debt and obtain excellent legal training, but after that, I would like to think I can do what I want. Start a business, perhaps? Work for an investment bank? Work for a central bank? Write a novel? A fulfilling career does not have to end with a firm---it technically does not have to start there either.

-- ElizabethOsei - 27 Jan 2021

I just figured out how to use these topics. I was a little confused navigating the website but I am grateful to my classmate, Olivia, for helping me! If anything, that is a great reminder how useful our network can be. The people that we surround ourselves with can really help us! I share all of our concerns about money... And I appreciate this class because it seems to be giving me an alternative to getting that money... Using the resources/networks that we create so that we can not only have a fulfilled life but ALSO have money. I guess I had mostly thought of it as one or the other before this class.

-- TaleahTyrell - 01 Feb 2021

Nnamdi, as the original post writer, and anyone above, I am curious if you mean your happiness and fulfillment exists in big law in the actual big law ecosystem, or in the money from big law? What makes you happy?

-- OliviaMartinez - 02 Feb 2021

I agree very much with the original fears expressed by Nnamdi. However, I don't feel that my happiness exists in the ecosystem of big law. I really feel that it exists beyond that.

I think I have tougher expectations for myself than my family members. My parents have worked both day and night shifts 5-6 days a week for almost all of my life. They often remind me that I have to have something to make me happy, and if that can be work, that's the kind of privilege they've worked for me to have. I still feel like money would do more for all of us than me being my most happy self in work. Like Elizabeth said, I feel the pressure of making the most of my parents' sacrifices, especially those they continue to make as I get older and the struggles I've had to see them go through in my absence at school. As really the only person in family right now to even have the prospect of making it, and at such a young age, my family does remind me how much they're relying on me as a means of encouragement, but they don't pressure me to immediately make money. Beyond all of this, my loans are ridiculous and need to be paid.

While the prospect of financial stability does make me very happy, what really makes me happy is making a difference for others. I'm a big believer of walking in your purpose, and I just don't feel like my purpose is firm work.

I don't think my happiness lies in big law, but I really do need the money.

-- OliviaMartinez - 02 Feb 2021

Also, one more thing: Something that bothers me is that I've been told firms don't care what work you've done before or what you want to do because they know you'll work for a certain amount of money. They know the price you'll sell yourself, and maybe your happiness, at. But public interest organizations have to care, because the resources are so limited. I don't like the idea of agreeing to a price as a symbol of happiness.

-- OliviaMartinez - 02 Feb 2021

Maryam, I wish I had an answer to your question. The only reason I feel I might be unhappy is a firm is because there's something I know I'd rather be doing more. Would also love to talk about finding a way to live comfortably.

-- OliviaMartinez - 02 Feb 2021

Olivia, I feel that tension between the money of BigLaw and happiness elsewhere. I mean how many of us have searched houses on Zillow in neighborhoods we want to live in and think "damn, now that would be a life," or the thought of buying your parents something you know they denied for themselves in order to care for you. I'll admit it I do it most nights before I go to bed and it serves as a great deal of my motivation. However, the reality is that the cost to get to that path, something that I think we all relate to, might be higher than we bargained for. Personally, though others have done and continue to do the BigLaw path and live to tell the tale that doesn't answer the question we all have of whether or not this is the path for me. I have no answers either but, at least we are addressing the problem.

-- DawitAklilu - 03 Feb 2021

Hey Dawit, what do you see as some of the costs to get to that path? And what do you think will be some signs that something is the path for you?

-- OliviaMartinez - 04 Feb 2021

To Olivia re: your question from a few days ago - for me the happiness is both the money, as well as the prestige that I believe comes from working at an elite law firm. For some reason, I feel as though if I don't pay my dues by going through that system, I will be seen as having wasted my money and my time (and I might end up feeling the same). Additionally, there is a ever-present background fear that as a minority, taking a non-traditional (read: non-obviously-lucrative/prestigious) path after leaving CLS will cause people to perceive me as a "charity case" that didn't deserve to be at CLS in the first place.

I experienced similar fears after graduating from here for undergrad. For many minorities, if you graduate from Columbia (or some other expensive school) and aren't doing something lucrative/prestigious right after graduation, the general sentiment (at least from family) is that all that money was a waste and that you might as well have become a garbageman or something like that (no disrespect to garbagemen either - it's a great job, and they are PAID with a capital P.)

-- NnamdiNwaezeapu - 05 Feb 2021

Interesting thoughts. Nnamdi, I think your motivations for going into Big Law are the same as many others'. Reading your post actually made me more aware of how those motivations aren't necessarily furthered by a career in Big Law. Insofar as money and prestige/validation would result in happiness, I think it's doubtful we need Big Law for those things. Of course, there's big money in Big Law, but is that amount of money necessary? What we term "low-income" coming out of CLS is, in the grand scheme of things, a livable salary that would more than support a person with normal spending habits. Similarly, if the motivation behind Big Law is proving one's legal education was worthwhile, I don't think Big Law is very helpful either. I think most non-lawyers hear the word "lawyer" and are impressed. They typically aren't in the business of distinguishing between the lawyer making $60K and the Big Law attorney making $190K. The people who are most likely to know the difference in prestige (and care) are other lawyers. Even so, I doubt that other people thinking my practice is prestigious will make my practice worthwhile to me.

Anyway, those are just my reflections on some of the reasons why I'd think I'd want to go into Big Law and why it probably doesn't serve my underlying motivations. I'm interested to hear what others think.

-- ArjanHeir - 07 Feb 2021

Hi everyone. I thought I would contribute my perspective, as someone who came to Columbia set on public interest (for context-- I had to take out a bunch of loans, but I have the privilege of not supporting my parents financially). One of the reasons I chose Columbia is the public interest loan repayment program. It's allegedly the best in the country. I know that I'll have debt for a while after law school, but with the LRAP program, it feels like it might be manageable. I also have to frequently remind myself that public interest jobs can have a solid income (especially compared to jobs outside of the legal field). Ending up in a government or nonprofit job that I'm passionate about, and that eventually surpasses 100k, is a balance that I hope will bring me happiness. Enough money to live comfortably and a career that I truly care about. I grew up in a public interest family, so I have the security of knowing this route is feasible. It's easy to look at big law salaries and feel like 100-150K is inadequate, but before I entered the law school ecosystem, big law salaries would have honestly horrified me. I now have to actively work to not succumb to the narrative that we need to make an amount of money that I previously thought was insane to live happily. I am also interested in the idea of starting my own environmental firm after taking this class, but I have no idea what essentially a nonprofit firm would look like..

So overall, of course no judgment for people who are going into big law but for those who feel pressured by the money, just wanted to serve as a reminder that it's not the only way to make a living!

-- EmmaShumway - 08 Feb 2021