-- DavidGarfinkel - 03 Feb 2010 A major theme of the class seems to include that many, if not most, Columbia students will go out and pawn their licenses. This idea seems to strongly correlate with the vast percentage of students who go to work for a corporate law firm, though is not the only way this pawning occurs. What I want to ask is why do so many students choose this career path when most are aware of the consequences, for themselves and society, that result from that decision. This is something I am currently wrestling with, and will not deny that I am looking towards a possible career at a large law firm if I could get one. The dilemma I am facing is why do I want such a career, knowing that most associates seem to be miserable at their jobs, the ratio of pay/hours worked, and the chance of promotion is minimal within the firm so that will never have any real control and end up getting trapped in a certain lifestyle that becomes hard to escape from. From my perspective, it is hard to pinpoint the source, because I can't really believe that Columbia actively pushes it more so than other careers, and people find ways of paying of their loans one way or another, just the length of time it takes will differ. What I seem to question myself lately is do such large corporate firms actually give monetary rewards and prestige that is worth it and can actually be utilized towards a true career path. That I don't know. What seems to force so many students hands is that we are forced to choose a career after one year of law school, having taken no substantive course work or ability to explore different fields. This is a strange contrast to college where many of us took at least 2 years to figure out what major, and even longer to figure out what we want to do afterward. So why do so many of us choose to work for a large law firm?

-- MikeAbend - 03 Feb 2010

It doesn't seem rational people would make such seemingly irrational decisions. There has to be a reason. First lets assume that man has a weighing mechanism when making decisions. In addition, lets break down all decisions to binary "to be or not to be" simplicity (I think this is possible, but that's another discussion). My first point is that we choose one thing over another in every situation for seemingly rational reasons. When I choose to do something, there is a totality of volition on my part. I take into account everything I know about the circumstances and make the "correct decision". So what pushes us to take these jobs over more fulfilling jobs? I think it has to do with what we value or fear: wealth, love, glory, societal approval vs. societal disapproval, failure, etc.-- any one of these perceived general values could push us over the top if we get it from being a successful, miserable, corporate lawyer.

Or, there could be such little incentive in the other option that the lawyer job seems much better. But Moglen believes, and he might be right, that all law students are naturally endowed with empathy, so lets consider what would make the irrational job seemingly better than a fulfilling, successful life. I think part of it has to do with societal values and what our culture most values. The power of groupthink, especially on a national scale, seems unbelievably powerful to me and I have to believe it is always an influence on our decisions.

When considering the typical American's societal values, I noticed its stark contrast to "Janteloven", a surprisingly pervasive Nordic social regime focused on the basic rule of "Don't think you're anyone special or that you're better than us". Under Janteloven, distinguishing one's self from the group is socially stigmatized-- think the exact opposite of how our law school operates.

No one is labeled for their accomplishments or wealth but only for how they function in the community, i.e. practicing modesty and treating every person with equal respect. When I lived in Denmark, I was struck by people's immediate acceptance of any individual's pursuits and the lack of division in social circles based on socioeconomic status. People just want others to be happy, and a garbageman could be best friends with the CEO of a multinational corporation. Money and professional accomplishment is not a factor in determining social status. Every graduate student is in school because of a genuine passion for the subject, not what it will offer.

Note that I think this is easier for them because they maintain homogeneity of race, although the composition is changing somewhat with immigration.

Moglen showed the economic inequality of our country through the distribution of wealth, and I agree with him that the graph is going to get worse, not better, when the new data comes out. Looking at which countries perform best on the Gini index (which measure of inequality of income or wealth), four of the five Nordic countries were in the top 5:

1) Sweden 2) Denmark 3) Slovenia 4) Iceland 4) Norway (Norway was listed lower on Wikipedia, but I checked out of curiosity and it was actually tied for fourth). https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2172.html

Granted these countries are semi-socialistic, but the cultural and societal vales embrace and maintain the status quo.

Cultural values play a role in our rational decision-making, and the American system puts a premium on wealth and socioeconomic status. Its contrast to the Nordic system may indicate a reason why so many people make such irrational career decisions.

• I agree with Matt's comment that people make irrational decisions all the time. I also to some extent understand the comments that suggest that there is some kind of societal or systemic explanation or "cultural values" that play a role in our decision-making. But I don't think those values contribute at all to "rational" decision-making. If cultural values play a role in our decision-making in a way that actually contradicts our own real values and wants (assuming we actually know what those are) isn't that actually inherently irrational? We go against what we might otherwise think to be a sensible, rational decision to pursue our own best interests, and instead fall prey to some culturally-imposed "value" that we don't even actually agree with. I think the takeaway is that we don't always think rationally, and that the "system" and "society" shape our decisions in a way that makes them irrational. For instance, to take Eben's basic example of going to work for a law firm, and assume it is in our best interest to be happy, comfortable, and fulfilled. The fact that taking a job at a firm deprives us of choice and the ability to even decide which side of a case we are on, and leaves us with a scary possibility of fighting for a side that we think is wrong doesn't actually make much sense, in that it could leave us woefully unfulfilled and unhappy. It is the societal influences that are mentioned above that might convince us that it does make sense. This seems pretty irrational to me. I think we should give ourselves more credit than being completely susceptible to the values that are imposed on us by culture- we are, after all, independent and able to form our own ideas and make our own calls about what makes sense and what doesn't. If we assess what is valuable to us, ourselves, and still choose a path that actually reflects the values of someone else, or society, we aren't being rational- we are either being afraid of something or being "insane" in that we are convincing ourselves of things that aren't true with some psychic rationalization in order to assuage our fears and anxiety.

I guess this begs the question- what about people who actually, rationally weigh the costs and benefits of working in a firm and societal values match up with their own? What do we say about a person who does value wealth above autonomy, choice, and justice? Maybe Eben's response would be that really no one is happy in that situation; but surely, for some, the money outweighs the other stuff? Can being a lawyer just be a job, and nothing more? Do we just ignore these people as beyond the scope of our conversation because we seem to be operating under and assumption that we all value justice? I'm just not sure where this kind of person fits in with our discussion, so any thoughts on this are appreciated! -- JessicaHallett - 03 Feb 2010

• "It doesn't seem rational people would make such seemingly irrational decisions."

It does to me. We do all the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

just a start. Rationality is often a myth. -- MatthewZorn - 03 Feb 2010

• I agree with the factors Mike listed that lead law students to make irrational choices, but I just want to add the simple possibility that students don't even know that other "rational" options even exist. Besides presenting the polar opposites of firm jobs and public interest work, Columbia does not make it a priority to help students really figure out the full spectrum of choices available to them. -- SamHershey - 03 Feb 2010