On Wednesday I am going to take a crack at organizing these questions into topics, subtopics, and talk pages. If anyone would like to collaborate (in person) in that process, please send me an email (arc2129@columbia.edu) and we can figure out a time and place. Hopefully, once this list is a bit more manageable, we can all collaborate on getting some answers - particularly to those pressing questions about registering for classes, the writing competition, and using the summer effectively. -- AdamCarlis 08 May 2008

It would be productive to first construct categories into which we can sort out the topics and subtopics. I guess I will start, but please add on because I cannot be as complete and thorough as possible right now. -- JesseCreed - 10 May 2008

1. Professional Goals and Skills a. Short-term goals b. Long-term goals c. Productivity Skills

2. Academic Goals and Skills a. Courses b. Journals

---

How about we just limit this thread to questions?

1. I’m assuming that the skills we’ve acquired in law school are on their own not enough for us to earn a livelihood. We have to learn to apply these skills so as to perform a service for which we’ll get paid. If so, why not use the firm as a paid residency? Medical students have to pull 36 hour shifts without getting paid; why can’t we get our ‘hands on’ training from the firm and earn 160k in the process?

2. X years down the road, I’d like to open a private practice, set my own hours and practice a field of law that I want to practice. Does working at the firm provide a stable foundation (both financially and professionally) with which to advance those desires? If not, what other options are there?

3. Are future career options (e.g. in-house counsel jobs) more limited if we don’t land the big job at the big firm? Word on the street is that it plays a HUGE role.

4. How do we repay our loans as quickly and painlessly as possible? Does LRAP make any sense? Firm?

5. Is it possible to achieve a work/life balance while working at a big firm?

-- DavidM - 16 Apr 2008

I'm swayed by the idea that my husband has enjoyed his Midwest private practice career over the years. Observing him traverse his career path, but admittedly often from a fair distance, leads me to believe that I can have that, too. Given that we're talking about a non-national law firm market (specifically, Indianapolis) here, how likely am I to be mistaken in making this leap of faith?

-- BarbPitman - 16 Apr 2008

How will one become an influential writer, in the 21st century?

1. If a writer is one talented at creating audiences, will that talent still be lucrative?
   • Will it remain a matter of choosing which publisher-corporation one wants to be an advertisement for (e.g. New York Times, Columbia University, Vogue magazine ... or whichever website gets the best traffic)?
   • Or will the internet destroy publishers? will I have to call writing a "hobby?" If so, what other marketable skill should I learn?
2. What are the social diseases that the Internet will create, that I need to become equipped to protest?
   • loss of identity, information integrity, social control? ... How will these diseases spawn and spread?
   • What professional routes will permit me to be an open (or at least productive) critic of the way in which corporate marketing degrades human dignity and free choice? (paraphrase: How much more ethical are we capable of making CEOs?)
   • Can I make others feel the indignity that I feel, when I'm the victim of successful advertising? (should I?)

-- AndrewGradman - 16 Apr 2008

After Law School

1. The question often raised - whether it is a good idea to work at a firm temporarily after law school to get legal training, presumes that firms offer good training. How accurate is this notion? How does the training one receives at a large firm compare to that in other employment opportunities?

2. What does a recent law school graduate, with the limited skills gained during three years in a classroom setting, actually do on a day to day basis at a large firm?

3. I gather that clerkships offer a substantive and beneficial way to make contacts and get training right after law school. Can we list some other non-firm alternatives?

3(a). If we are interested in a certain area such as international human rights law, will going straight to working with a human rights organization cut us off from getting more thorough legal training?

Law School

1. How can we best take advantage of being in law school - ie what classes/activities - to work on our writing skills?

2. As we have often discussed, the practice of law is quickly changing in terms of becoming more international, outsourcing, etc. How can we best prepare in law school for the changing nature of the practice of law?

• I think that this question is important. We should ask the reciprocal question as well: what would be the best curriculum or teaching method to prepare us for the changing nature of the practice of law?
• We should also ask what the administration has done/is doing to evaluate the current system. -- JustinColannino - 18 Apr 2008

-- CarinaWallance - 16 Apr 2008

How do you find a mentor in your professional career who is willing to invest in your education and future?

How do you establish trust with other people, both as collaborators in your project (i.e. a team member, fellow law school student) and as clients of your projects (i.e. somebody who needs a legal problem solved)?

-- JesseCreed - 17 Apr 2008

I think my fears and questions in this area are slightly more prosaic. As a 23 year old who has never previously held down a real job and who is admittedly enamored of the student lifestyle, my biggest question is simply how do I figure out what I want/need out of life from even a purely financial point of view? I guess the answer to this is of course is that I need to look into myself, but I'm certainly worried about trying to balance the things that I would like to do for myself and the burdens that I will willingly assume (a family, etc) down the road. It just seems like a daunting task, and perhaps something of a gamble to try and make a decision about my career path now without knowing better what burdens I plan on assuming later and what "quality of life" I want have after school.

-- AlexLawrence - 17 Apr 2008

Moreover, one of my best friend's father, who is a successful lawyer, once gave me the cautionary advice that a law degree is to a certain extent a "perishable good." What he meant by this was that if you take a non-legal job (something, I for one, have thought a lot about) right out of law school you only have about 2 years to decide if you want to go back into the legal profession. Beyond that you're too far removed from law school and the knowledge isn't fresh in your head so you don't really stand a chance against the newest, youngest, and freshest set of "packaged meat." Is this true? Or maybe is it only true for corporate, big-firm, law?

Along the same lines, if you don't take a legal job right out of school, is it worth it to still take the bar after 3L year since that is when everything will be freshest in our minds? Or, for those going a non-legal route are you planning on gambling and not taking the bar on the hope that you'll be able to cram for it and pass it later if need be?

-- AlexLawrence - 17 Apr 2008

1. First, considering the way we’ve framed the realm of corporate law, is it possible for someone to have a valid reason for purposely making that the goal of their career? I suppose at this point, a similar question is why do EIP (rather than how), and no one could give me a reason why one might go in that direction, other than 1) they have no other plans or 2) they want money/networking. So, is there a good affirmative reason to subject oneself to corporate law to begin with?

2. I keep getting the feeling that if law school was Ben & Jerry’s, the only flavors within my sight are vanilla (corporate law), chocolate (public interest) and maybe strawberry (clerkship). I hate feeling like there’s Chubby Hubby, Cherry Garcia and a whole host of other flavors out there that are more interesting and complex and might fit me perfectly, yet I can’t even see them. Where can I find out about all these other flavors and get away from the two plain options that I’m presented with right now?

3. At a panel about whether or not to do EIP, a few panelists strongly suggested that many public interest firms look down their noses at applicants who have dabbled in corporate law, and vice versa. Unless I have the luxury of figuring out what area in which I want to practice before I graduate, it would be to my benefit to dabble in different areas, but it angers me that doing this (in an effort to make myself the best lawyer I can be) causes me to lose points with whatever institution I end up choosing. If this phenomenon is true, how can I avoid looking wishy-washy yet explore all of my options?

4. Is it the same in public interest as corporate law that it’s more about who you know in the industry than your objective skills as an applicant?

-- WhytneBrooks - 17 Apr 2008

1) how does one make partner at a big firm

2) what, if any, benefits does making partner at a big firm bestow upon one who wants to eventually enter private practice

3) If one does not wish to go to a big firm and also does not wish to enter the public sector right out of law school, how does one pay down 200K in loans while building a meaningful practice?

4) I am also interested in big firm training. What kind of training does one receive and how does it help in the long run.

5) as an associate, we are told, one does not get a lot of in court practice (assume litigation practice). How does one gain the knowledge pertaining to 1) how to file a motion 2) where to file that motion 3) the other nuts and bolts of practicing that we don't learn when looking at the "big" picture in our other classes?

-- AdamGold? - 17 Apr 2008

What some good sources for information about specific employers (firms, government agencies, non-profits) including things are awkward to ask about during interviews (salaries, hours)?

-- ClaireOSullivan - 17 Apr 2008

1. How can I best identify and partner with individuals who share my aspirations, politics, and worth ethic in order to build a community of young progressive lawyers?

• There are some satellite questions here that I would like to ask. Is law school currently a good place to learn how to build this type of community? Should it be? Should there be more clinical options that build these types of communites at the school with the hope that they will last after graduation? -- JustinColannino - 18 Apr 2008

2. What are the details of the new LRAP policy? (I can just look this up)

3. Is the document-heavy, detail-specific, drudgery of civil litigation too debilitating for me to actually enjoy it?

4. Will the current Supreme Court gut every potential cause of action for the clients I would want to work for in the first place?

5. If not, are plaintiff’s firms a decent place to start?

6. How can I do criminal defense work, pick my clients, but still defend the poor?

7. What classes will best teach me how to practice – regardless of where/how I end up practicing?

-- AdamCarlis - 17 Apr 2008

1. How true is the notion of "bamboo ceiling" for Asian Americans (especially 1.5 generation immigrants) in big firms?

2. Aside from big law firms, what alternatives are there that would allow me to get the training, connections, and resources to build myself an international practice (in terms of corporate)?

-- TaeSangYoo - 18 Apr 2008

If law school teaches us nothing about being a lawyer, then what exactly are we supposed to get out of law school?

Which courses or extracurricular activities (journals, clinic, student groups?) should we partake in to get the most out of the law school experience?

How do I set up my own niche practice if I don't have another set of special skills (computer programing, for example, like Eben)?

I would really like to know where all the women in this field do end up. Do they leave to raise families? Simply can't "hang with the boys" in the office?

-- ChristinaYoun - 18 Apr 2008

What types of skills should we be developing heading that will be important in the future that could allow us to contract our time, rather than our minds to firms?

If one wants to go into academia, is having a Ph.D. in a social science a benefit, or a detriment? (the extra 5-7 years in school aside)

If an individual is working at a big firm, what types of experiences or practice areas should he or she be seeking out to get real training?

What firms are known for providing training and allowing associates some control over their work?

If not going into biglaw, what should a person do, practically speaking, to pay back their loans following law school?

-- GideonHart - 18 Apr 2008

1) At what point do I have to start specializing (or pick) the area of law I want to go into? Do I have to choose while I'm in law school?

2) If I have 0 interest in working for a firm, do I still need to take classes like Corporations and Tax Law? When picking classes, should I think about what is going to be on the Bar?

3) How important is it for me to know what geographic area of the country I want to live in?

4) Will I still be able to find a good public interest job in a small city if I can't start applying until November or December of my 3L year? Or, more to the point, if my significant other plans to clerk and I do not, how can we ensure that we end up in the same place after graduation?

5) After graduation, how can I use politics and the law to achieve my goals (e.g. getting mass public transportation in Portland and Seattle, where all attempts have been defeated at the polls)?

-- AmandaHungerford - 19 Apr 2008

How do I go about finding what areas of law I really care about between now and when I have to find employment?

Is it true that I need public interest work experience to get a public interest job?

Aren't the criticisms of law firms (broken compensation structure) valid for salaried public interest jobs as well?

Can I really live on 30k a year?

-- WendyHuang - 20 Apr 2008

Where can I find legal work that pays a decent wage where i get out of work at 5PM?

Is it possible to "use" a firm (by use I mean get paid without working crazy hours, receive mentoring, and learn skills useful outside the firm environment) without them using you up, if you don't care about making partner?

What if you don't care about your reputation when you leave? (i.e. how long can i get away with leaving work early and posting low billables?)

How long does it take to get fired from a firm?

What jobs allow lawyers out of law school meaningful time with decision makers on a daily basis?

What high paying non-legal careers are out there and available to a young lawyer with no full time work experience?

Is it possible to get a job out of law school where you're not doing someone else's grunt work for 50 hours a week? Are there options outside of government?

-- JulianBaez - 20 Apr 2008

How are technological advances going to change the legal profession, and how can I be prepared for those changes?

• Related: How can I use technological changes to my client's advantage? How can I use technology to have a more efficent practice? -- JustinColannino - 20 Apr 2008

-- JuliaS - 20 Apr 2008

1. I know that I want to start my own non-profit after working for a bit. Where can I get information about this process?

2. I have not taken any business/economics courses and I don't want to miss out on those skills. What's the best way for a law student to start learning about these things? Any books to recommend, classes, or community courses...

3. I know I want to work and study the intersections of human rights and media law (like working with independent film/documentary teams, cultural group performers/activists). Any ideas on where to start? Know anyone to talk to?

-- MiaWhite - 20 Apr 2008

1. Maybe this is a Meta-question, but why big law firm. Is it really just as simple as the money. I would like to know from the people who pursue it what they get out of it, why they stick with it, etc.?

2. How does one successfully complete a summer associateship, and their first few years at a firm?

3. As a conscious person, how do i distinguish between levels of social harm. All of the schools I have attended have big endowments, operate like corporations and do things that don't further my personal goals towards social change. What makes a law firm different. Is the issue whether or not I utilize them(these schools & a firm) for what they give me to get where I want? Is the question whether the ends justify the means?

-- MichaelBrown - 20 Apr 2008

1. How do I figure out what areas of law I would like to work in during law school? (do I? can I?)

2. The biggest source of anxiety for me is that I am not so sure that the skills I will need as a lawyer--e.g. writing, communicating, speaking--have been improving since I started law school. How do I assess where I am, apart from the grades I receive?

3. What is it like working for one of the government agencies, such as the SEC, FTC, and the Fed?

-- JayunKoo - 20 Apr 2008

In terms of curricular planning:

Do I have to take classes such as Corporations, Tax, etc.? What are the benefits of taking these classes versus the costs of not taking them? Are there certain classes that every law student "must" take?

How can I make the best use out of my 3L year? Should I look to spending my time abroad or at an externship, or should I take classes?

-- MinaNasseri - 20 Apr 2008

Why do law firms (and many other types of businesses) choose to overwork associates rather than hire additional workers to make up the hours? Couldn’t a firm hire 20% more associates and have each of them bill 40 rather than 50 hours (for 20% less pay)?

-- EdwardNewton - 21 Apr 2008

Why does law school rush the process so much. We have a meeting on 2L summer and talk of what we want to do and where we want to be when we graduate before we start talking about what courses we want to take or really get involved in the opportunities here?

-- MaxDubin - 21 Apr 2008

Why do law firms spend so much money on 1L receptions and events? Adding to Edward's question, couldn't the money be redirected for additional associates? Couldn't the money be redirected for pro bono efforts? Couldn't the money be used to provide scholarships for law students who want to pursue public interest work and social good?

• I'm not sure that this is the only response to this, but at one of the few receptions I went to I actually spoke with a partner about this very question, and her response was that as soon as even one top firm does a 1L firm reception then it sparks a sort of cold war-esque arms buildup where every other firm then has to do one. In this environment, therefore, each firm is constantly trying to outdo all the others, leading to the massive 1L firm reception cycle we see today. So maybe another question to ask along these same lines is is there anything we as students can do to convince the law firms not to spend money on receptions but instead put it to better use? Or like in the story Eben told us about the push in the 80's to switch to a non-graded first term do you think the majority of students would rise up against this and demand the continuation of the free-food gravy train? -- AlexLawrence - 22 Apr 2008

-- CarlForbes - 21 Apr 2008

1. I eventually want to have children, and so one concern I have is how to use my law degree to financially support a family in the New York metropolitan area. Besides working at a large law firm, are there other career paths that pay you enough to raise a family with some sense of financial security in one of the most expensive regions in the country?

2. For those of us who work at a large law firm and step off the partnership track, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, what other opportunities are available? For example how does one go about getting a general counsel position at a company and how difficult is it to do so? What are the advantages and disadvantages of going in-house at a company as opposed to working at a law firm?

3. What are some of the typical challenges faced by solo practicioners? How does their daily life compare with life at a law firm?

-- JustinKim - 21 Apr 2008

As some people before me have posted, how do I go about determining what field of law I want to practice in(what i can be passionate about) while in law school? How do I avoid just randomly getting assigned to one random field of law or another as a 1st year associated at a firm? How long, on average, does it take to pay back the student loans accumulated over the course of law school (not to mention undergrad)? How can I best prepare to start a practice/business on my own? What tools do I need to make the transition from law to business after paying off student loans? Are business/econ. classes necessary to enter into corporate law or are they just an added bonus?

-- JonathanBoustani - 22 Apr 2008

There are a lot of very good questions on this thread and I think that the first step of finding the answers will be to consolidate this list to a manageable number. We have to find groups of questions that go to a single issue and rephrase them as a single question, and given the amount of time we have, we may have to cut many of these questions off the list if their not too important to the group. If we want to find good answers, or as Julian would say, if we want to find the people who know the answers we need, we're going to need a smaller list of questions.

The only question i would add, has to do with resources. There are a lot of questions about how to work outside a firm and still get paid enough, but i am more worried about how to work outside a big firm and have the resources to compete with such a firm. I would love to be a public defender, but they frequently don't have the resources to win their cases. At a firm, i'd get to take fewer pro bono cases, but i'd likely win more of the cases i got to take. That might be an oversimplification, but my question would be: What is the comparison between the resources of a law firm and other resources available, and how much does it affect success rates in court?

-- OluwafemiMorohunfola - 22 Apr 2008

How can I reconcile a distaste for the grade race with a real desire to have the experience of doing a clerkship?

How great is the danger of becoming "pigeonholed" in one area of the law (such as criminal defense)?

How important is class selection while in law school? If I accidentally fail to take classes in an area that I later find out I want to practice, will that hurt me?

How (specifically) does one go about starting and funding a non-profit law firm?

-- DanielButrymowicz - 23 Apr 2008

How important is it really that you start in what is called a major market for legal services (NYC, DC, SF, LA, Chi)? Why is starting in a city outside of this group looked down upon? Is it assumed that your substantive work / actual legal skill is inferior to that of someone who chooses to start at one of these "major" cities?

-- MakalikaNaholowaa - 23 Apr 2008

How should I plan my exit strategy when starting with a firm, and more importantly, how do I stick to that plan? What factors/forces trap lawyers at their firms? How can we learn to look several steps ahead when solving legal problems?

-- JaredBaumgart - 24 Apr 2008

What type of long-term opportunities are there for people who wish to practice outside the US? Are international jobs largely confined to global law firms and large NGO's? How should the desire to practice outside the US affect one's choice of practice area? How are the answers to these questions likely to change in the future?

-- KalebMcNeely - 24 Apr 2008

My concerns are similar to the questions posed by others regarding balancing work and family. I'm nearing the age when I have to start worrying about my biological clock. My plans are to start a family immediately after law school. I'm concerned how my plans will affect the advancement of my legal career. What is the best job for a female fresh out of law school who plans to be pregnant, and doesn't want to be overstressed during her pregnancy? What can I do during law school to ensure that I get that job? A fellow 1L mentioned that she plans to have a child either next year or during her 3L year. Is that a realistic option? What is the better choice?

-- ElaineTan - 24 Apr 2008

If you're not going to participate in the traditional firm structure, how can you go about looking for a mentor? Additionally, how could you find a mentor that is able to help you with your entire career path? What are some ways to find a pro bono cause outside of the ideas with firms and their billable hours? Is it reasonable to think that you can change the way that law school classes are taught?

-- AndrewWolstan - 24 Apr 2008

What should I do if I think I may want to work in academia? How do I figure out if I really want to do that? Do I have to want to teach? (Personally, I have serious problems with public speaking but I could be really happy spending the next 20 years doing library research…) How do I figure out if this is really the type of work I would like to do? Am I simply addicted to student life? Am I lazy? Once I decide I might want to do something academic what course of study should I follow? Should I look into PhD? programs? Is that necessary? What if I am interested in the intersection of law and social sciences? Again, how do I figure out if that is really what I want to do? I have never taken a break from school so I think I need to graduate from law school and work for a while. What should I do during that period if I think I may want to return to school? Clerk? Work for a while then just go back to school? What are some helpful resources?

-- ThaliaJulme - 24 Apr 2008

This is not exactly a question, but it's something that requires an answer. What would help most for embarking on a non-firm career path would be examples of people who have chosen non-firm paths and have been able to make it work.

One example I have is a friend here whose father became a public defender after law school. He then used his contacts/skills to become a very successful criminal defense lawyer.

-- ShawKaneyasuSpeck - 24 Apr 2008

How can I balance passions that seem to lead in very different directions? I think this relates to Dan's question about trying to avoid getting pigeonholed? How can I balance my interests that lead me to "non-legal" advocacy with those that lead me into litigation. Should I try to merge them? Should I try to leave all doors open? But life isn't simply about leaving all my doors open forever. At some point, do I have to just choose a goal and a means, pursue it, and (for the most part) not look back?

How do I balance doing simply what fulfills me (professionally) at the moment with what I hope to achieve in the future? I like to think of things happening organically, but I also want to make sure I'm prepared and well qualified for the future.

-- ChristopherBuerger - 25 Apr 2008

How difficult is it to practice law abroad after law school? Does it always mean getting a new degree or certification in the foreign country? Or are there certain jobs/places where a US degree and bar certification carries over?

-- ChristopherWlach - 25 Apr 2008

Can an autonomous practitioner hang a shingle directly after law school without taking over a family practice?

-- DanielHarris - 28 Apr 2008

It seems like a lot of the questions asked so far are based on the shared fear that we will all end up unhappy because we're stuck in a boring and/or high-stress job. Well, I believe that you don't always know what you will end up enjoying and it is even harder to predict what dream job will lead you to true self-actualization and happiness. Therefore, I think the better question for me to ask myself is not "what makes me happy?", but "how do I remain flexible enough to continue to search for that dream job throughout my career?".

I am sure my dreams and priorities will change throughout my life. So, I want to have the tools necessary to get jobs in government, public interest, firms, and internationally. In other words, is it still possible to be a Renaissance woman (w/ a legal degree)? What do I need to do now to start stocking the necessary tool box?

-- JenniferClark - 29 Apr 2008

Since we don't get as much hands on experience in law school as I would like, what are some ways to dabble in different parts of legal work before leaving law school? How do we figure out what exactly we want to pursue if we are not really working "in the field at all?"

While the Law School career counselors are fine, I can't help but feel you either get a "corporate counselor" or a "public interest" one, both looking down on the other one. How can we find mentors outside of the law school who have done work that we are interested in?

If we do know what we want to do, but the path seems daunting or unclear, who can we talk to that will help us pave a reasonable career plan to achieve those goals? Where can we find counselors who are not just worried about the employment rate at graduation?

-- JenniferBurke - 01 May 2008

What is the best way in law school to gain the skills necessary for working efficiently in groups? A lawyer is someone who knows how to solve a legal problem, but doesn't a better lawyer work with his peers to solve the legal problem?

Is taking advantage of the opportunity to take business school classes a good start?

What do you look for in your collaborators to avoid the free riders?

-- MattDavisRatner - 01 May 2008

What is the best way to identify people I may want to start my own firm or organization with? How can I maintain those relationships once I have found them until I graduate?

As for graduating with clients - are there really that many specialties that we can jump into with little or no experience?

What are good ways of finding niches that need filling in the legal world?

-- KateVershov - 10 May 2008